Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:53 am  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

They're not bringing anything anything new to "the game". They are actually receiving something new to the city of Toronto. They have yet to provide the game with a financial benefit, homegrown canadian players, canadian coahces, canadian grassroots clubs e.t.c. What they have provided is huge salaries for other super league players to have a nice little holiday and earn some coin whilst playing uncompetitive games against teams with far less financial might.

Toronto bring nothing to the game in the UK or Super League that any other Super League club could not bring if they had some rich sugar daddy running them. This isn't "expansion". This is a Super League clubs becoming rich men's play things until they get bored. The Canadian Koukash one might say.

They’re bringing 9,000 new fans and a wider media profile through more tv deals.

Which clubs currently provide the game with a financial benefit?
You expect Championship or SL standard Canadian players and coaches in the space of 3 years? Which Championship clubs consistently provide these players? Featherstone for instance had what, 4?, homegrown players in their 17 vs Toronto. And Fev are better than most Championship clubs at producing players.

So if this could happen at any UK super league club, why hasn’t it? Maybe these rich sugar daddies don’t see much potential in most of the UK clubs but do in a new side based in a big city with all the potential that has to offer?

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:04 am  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

They're not bringing anything anything new to "the game". They are actually receiving something new to the city of Toronto. They have yet to provide the game with a financial benefit, homegrown canadian players, canadian coahces, canadian grassroots clubs e.t.c. What they have provided is huge salaries for other super league players to have a nice little holiday and earn some coin whilst playing uncompetitive games against teams with far less financial might.

Toronto bring nothing to the game in the UK or Super League that any other Super League club could not bring if they had some rich sugar daddy running them. This isn't "expansion". This is a Super League clubs becoming rich men's play things until they get bored. The Canadian Koukash one might say.

I will challenge that as they are clearly bringing something new.

8 - 10 new fans from a virgin market place.
Broadcast of rl in an entirely new market place.

I'm not sure what your expectations are in terms of new players and coaches, but it's not like rugby league players are just loitering around the world ready to play when a super league team turns up. It takes at least a generation to generate your own talent. There are ways of short cutting this by taking talent from other sports and retraining them. But if you are expecting 8-10 year old who may have first picked up a rugby ball in Canada 2 seasons ago to now be the core of the Canadian team then you will be disappointed.

Saints and Wigan and Leeds produce loads of youth each and every year and maybe 1 or 2 make then grade every couple of years. So if in 10 years time the wolf pack has 2 or 3 homegrown players in their squad they will be doing as well as top SL teams and better than some others.

As for providing huge salarys for SL players, you have by your own words indicated that they have by defacto boosted SL from a 12 team league to show iit can maintain 13 full time professional teams of similar standing.

I do question the longer term structure and strategy, for example how will they grow their youth set up if they are the only rl team, their youth need a local competition. But this may already being addressed.

But have they expanded the game, yes they have. Whether it is something that can be maintained over 10-20 years is another matter.

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:25 am  

Juse think in 10 to 20 yrs time we might be talking about Toronto in the same Breath has Paris another failure or in the same Breath has Catalan

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:31 am  

Someday wrote: Juse think in 10 to 20 yrs time we might be talking about Toronto in the same Breath has Paris another failure or in the same Breath has Catalan Yep the future is uncertain, the difference for new entry teams is that if it does not work in the top flight they have a harder time sustaining at a lower league. Plenty of traditional rl clubs have also failed either on the field or financially. So it's not limited to new entrants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ague_clubs

Someday wrote: Juse think in 10 to 20 yrs time we might be talking about Toronto in the same Breath has Paris another failure or in the same Breath has Catalan Yep the future is uncertain, the difference for new entry teams is that if it does not work in the top flight they have a harder time sustaining at a lower league. Plenty of traditional rl clubs have also failed either on the field or financially. So it's not limited to new entrants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ague_clubs

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:38 am  

bewareshadows wrote: Yep the future is uncertain, the difference for new entry teams is that if it does not work in the top flight they have a harder time sustaining at a lower league. Plenty of traditional rl clubs have also failed either on the field or financially. So it's not limited to new entrants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ague_clubs It would have been great if all those clubs had survived we might have been bigger then football we will never know

bewareshadows wrote: Yep the future is uncertain, the difference for new entry teams is that if it does not work in the top flight they have a harder time sustaining at a lower league. Plenty of traditional rl clubs have also failed either on the field or financially. So it's not limited to new entrants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ague_clubs It would have been great if all those clubs had survived we might have been bigger then football we will never know

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:08 pm  

Is it possible for Toronto lovers not to type the words TV DEAL ? How about typing the words 'Grass Roots Rugby/Canadian Juniors & Academy set up' instead....whoops !

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:35 pm  

Kennedy wrote:

Is it possible for Toronto lovers not to type the words TV DEAL ? How about typing the words 'Grass Roots Rugby/Canadian Juniors & Academy set up' instead....whoops !

Question - is that how North American sport operates though ? Isn't it all underpinned by franchising and TV deals, rather the frankly outdated UK model that grassroots and self development are key.

If the latter really works then why is the UK game still in such a precarious state ?

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:35 pm  

Would half an academy team be enough? You know like the hull clubs.

I've no idea if Toronto will make it or go the same way as the crusaders. But RL in England is moving in ever decreasing circles at present. Turning away the chance to grow the game on the basis that in two years they haven't a team full of Canadians is complete cobblers.

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:36 pm  

Him wrote:

They’re bringing 9,000 new fans and a wider media profile through more tv deals.

Which clubs currently provide the game with a financial benefit?
You expect Championship or SL standard Canadian players and coaches in the space of 3 years? Which Championship clubs consistently provide these players? Featherstone for instance had what, 4?, homegrown players in their 17 vs Toronto. And Fev are better than most Championship clubs at producing players.

So if this could happen at any UK super league club, why hasn’t it? Maybe these rich sugar daddies don’t see much potential in most of the UK clubs but do in a new side based in a big city with all the potential that has to offer?

1. Is 3 years years enough to implement an Academy set up or talent pathway for local talent? Has there even been a discussion in those 3 years towards plans to implement such a set up?

2. Will Toronto have to run a reserve set up as every other SL club has to from next season?

3. Do you know how many Fev academy products are playing there trade in Super League?

Re: Toronto : Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:58 pm  

shinymcshine wrote:

Question - is that how North American sport operates though ? Isn't it all underpinned by franchising and TV deals, rather the frankly outdated UK model that grassroots and self development are key.

If the latter really works then why is the UK game still in such a precarious state ?

Yeah franchising and TV deals are the end product but to produce the vast amount of players they need for they're major sports they have a monster size school sports system from High school to University, producing all the talent for the NFL, NBA etc. Ateotd you still have to get kids playing and invested in RL long term, whether that's at school or through Community Clubs to have any long term success. How does that fit in the North American system I don't know and I haven't heard anyone talk about it either.

The Aussies use a similar system to us and they're very successful, the difference is RL over there is the main sport.