Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:20 pm  

BumpyMcbump wrote:

Castleford are within the Wakefield metropolitain area, that's a 350,000 population, about 90-100,000 more than the city of Hull, Hull and urban area is about 500,000, Cas/wakey and Fev combined 14,900 average att. using 2019 numbers, that's 4257/100k, Hull FC+KR at 19,700m 3940/100k

Indeed. The way the boroughs are designed (i.e. don't exactly fit the town) makes things very difficult.

Wigan metropolitan borough is 328,662.
Wigan's population is 103,608. The borough also includes Leigh, Ashton-in-Makerfield and other small towns.

Warrington borough is 210,014.
Warrington's population is 165,456. The town pretty much fits the borough (officially a 'unitary authority').

So which is actually the bigger town that should have the bigger attendances?

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:28 am  

davids wrote:

As stated above, if the RL was a serious marketing machine*, some serious analysis such as 'x amount of people live within 30 minutes travelling distance of this ground, yet their crowds are very small' might be a helpful starting point. Resources and expertise could be directed to helping that club survive and prosper.

The RFL is little more than Rimmer and a few staff.

I'd guess there is well over a Million people 30 minutes away from Wakefield Trinity in Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield??

Good luck to anyone trying to boost Trinity's crowds from that angle.

What Trinity need is a modern ground to boost local support. The modernisation of RL grounds was certainly the catalyst for improved attendances and higher income pro rata..

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:41 am  

shinymcshine wrote:

It shows how dead our sport is when some fans of successful clubs with over 100 yrs of history think their club is doing well supporter wise, when they 'boast' of having just 5k-10k more fans than some relatively fledgling clubs. That Saints, Wigan and Leeds haven't made significant gains outside of their immediate areas shows the games inability to penetrate into any new fan base.

I dunno about this. In 2008 Leeds, Wigan Hull and Saints were the best supported clubs averaging 13,000 fans a game

The average a game for these four still dominant clubs eleven years later is 11,000.....

This was their average in the early 2000's

So the main drop off seems to be by new fans who were attracted to these big clubs in their new/modern/improved stadia but have lost interest despite these clubs continued success......

It's almost as if in the era of bigger and better stadiums more people were willing to go to watch the top clubs in their improved stadia, but somehow these additional fans have dropped off in recent years. Maybe ATEOTD they didn't care greatly for Rugby league, maybe it was some sort of era when it was fashionable to watch RL?

2003 we averaged 8,200 a game in Superleague
2019 we averages 8,200 a game in Superleague

If you think the sport is "dead" because of the current attendances, then it's no more dead than it was nearly 20 years ago. My guess is that the game became fashionable as Superleague progressed and stadia improved, but most of the "new fans" following the "glamour" clubs have over time peeled away........

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:48 am  

Donnyman wrote:

The RFL is little more than Rimmer and a few staff.

I'd guess there is well over a Million people 30 minutes away from Wakefield Trinity in Barnsley, Rotherham and Sheffield??

Good luck to anyone trying to boost Trinity's crowds from that angle.

What Trinity need is a modern ground to boost local support. The modernisation of RL grounds was certainly the catalyst for improved attendances and higher income pro rata..

It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impresssive history, don't get bigger crowds.

Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:51 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

I dunno about this. In 2008 Leeds, Wigan Hull and Saints were the best supported clubs averaging 13,000 fans a game

The average a game for these four still dominant clubs eleven years later is 11,000.....

This was their average in the early 2000's

So the main drop off seems to be by new fans who were attracted to these big clubs in their new/modern/improved stadia but have lost interest despite these clubs continued success......

It's almost as if in the era of bigger and better stadiums more people were willing to go to watch the top clubs in their improved stadia, but somehow these additional fans have dropped off in recent years. Maybe ATEOTD they didn't care greatly for Rugby league, maybe it was some sort of era when it was fashionable to watch RL?

2003 we averaged 8,200 a game in Superleague
2019 we averages 8,200 a game in Superleague

If you think the sport is "dead" because of the current attendances, then it's no more dead than it was nearly 20 years ago. My guess is that the game became fashionable as Superleague progressed and stadia improved, but most of the "new fans" following the "glamour" clubs have over time peeled away........

It is true that the new stadiums at Hull, Wigan and Warrington provided a boost in the early 00s, but its important to note that in the late 00s they decided to play 4 Derby games a season and that gave a short term boost to crowds, for HullFC no other fixture comes close to the Derby as a crowd puller, it was also of course a year of a big financial crash (season tickets will have been bought in 2007)

In my view the constant format changes have pushed away casual fans. Over the years I've had to explain to people at work that the game tonight wasn't a playoff it was 'super8' game and it didn't matter because Hull were too far away to make the playoffs proper...response to that was blank looks. We've also had 'Clubcall' with teams picking their playoff opponent, a different playoff format almost every year, franchising and promotion and relaxation. People who were only half interested in the first place get switched off.

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:55 pm  

davids wrote:

It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impresssive history, don't get bigger crowds.

Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.

In Wakefield's case the facilities are a big turn off, its not even like other old grounds where the atmosphere is great on the old terraces so you put up with it, you get Wet and the sound leaks out and the steps are shallow so the view is poor. The club have also stuttered along facing financial disaster for years, until the latest owners have steadied the ship and to their credit they have performed well given the budget.

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:11 am  

UllFC wrote:

It is true that the new stadiums at Hull, Wigan and Warrington provided a boost in the early 00s, but its important to note that in the late 00s they decided to play 4 Derby games a season and that gave a short term boost to crowds, for HullFC no other fixture comes close to the Derby as a crowd puller, it was also of course a year of a big financial crash (season tickets will have been bought in 2007)

In my view the constant format changes have pushed away casual fans. Over the years I've had to explain to people at work that the game tonight wasn't a playoff it was 'super8' game and it didn't matter because Hull were too far away to make the playoffs proper...response to that was blank looks. We've also had 'Clubcall' with teams picking their playoff opponent, a different playoff format almost every year, franchising and promotion and relaxation. People who were only half interested in the first place get switched off.

4 derby games a season reduces the overall average, frankly it's insane to do that, it does damage to your support and the interest in that fierce rivalry because it becomes more mundane/everyday due to the regularity of it.
This is why IMHO the SL structure is flawed and always has been, it's had the knock on effect of damaging interest in the CC as well due to where the CC was placed in the calender and the rounds being spread out stupidly/not enough time for certain fixtures.
Home and away fixtures only, if you want to have a top xx play off fine but the messing about with unbalanced fixtures is garbage.

I'm more attracted as would families IMO because of the modern facilities, try attracting a wider range of fans away from the die hards to the Boulevard as it was and we'd see signifcantly fewer fans on average. I loved it BITD but sitting with a decent view of the pitch, not getting soaked when it rains, having decent toilets and not having to run the gauntlet (you know what I mean) is massively more appealing to me.

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:42 am  

BumpyMcbump wrote:

4 derby games a season reduces the overall average, frankly it's insane to do that, it does damage to your support and the interest in that fierce rivalry because it becomes more mundane/everyday due to the regularity of it.
This is why IMHO the SL structure is flawed and always has been, it's had the knock on effect of damaging interest in the CC as well due to where the CC was placed in the calender and the rounds being spread out stupidly/not enough time for certain fixtures.
Home and away fixtures only, if you want to have a top xx play off fine but the messing about with unbalanced fixtures is garbage.

I agree with this. It can be difficult to get neutrals to sustain interest.

Also, I think Europeans like league championships, rather than a transplanted American/Aussie system of playoffs.

Europeans (I say that because it's not only a British thing) like the inherent fairness of a league system - you win the most games, you're the rightful champions at the end of the season.

I know the Grand Final is a money spinner, but the system of League + Challenge Cup + Regal Trophy fits better with people's understanding of how sport works here. It's the same as football basically - a league, a knockout cup, and another minor cup (like the Carabao or whatever it's called now).

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:43 am  

davids wrote:

It does strike me as strange that Wakefield, a club with an impressive history, don't get bigger crowds.

Like Warrington, there is no other significant local sports team, although I'm sure Leeds United have quite a few fans in Wakefield just as Liverpool and Man United have a lot in Warrington.

They sold out a game against Castleford that was a play off to see who was relegated. They had 11,000 there and not many Castleford fans at all. They are however a habitual losing club in a terrible stadium.

I suppose if they had Paul Caddick as a chairman they'd sell out a redeveloped Belle Vue ground every game......

They are also up against Leeds United. Wakey to Elland Road is an easy journey......

Re: Are London Broncos the worst supported SL side ever ? : Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:15 am  

UllFC wrote:

It is true that the new stadiums at Hull, Wigan and Warrington provided a boost in the early 00s, but its important to note that in the late 00s they decided to play 4 Derby games a season and that gave a short term boost to crowds...............

In my view the constant format changes have pushed away casual fans.............People who were only half interested in the first place get switched off.

I'm sure you are right and this is another factor in terms of crowds. We can't however rely on crowds at stadiums to support the professional game.

I think we all know if Superleague didn't have a TV deal there would be no Superleague and the game's profile would shrink badly as would crowds who would not want part time RL shorn of the big players. I remember the superleague season when Leeds played Bradford...

67,000 in the cup final
19,000 in the Headingley derby
21,000 in the Odsal derby
19,000 at odsal in the third league game
15,000 in the play off game at odsal

In a way I didn't like this in principle, but in practice these were great games, they drew big audiences to the games, and no doubt someone wanting to watch so RL on SKY would probably have welcomed Leeds and Bradford for the fifth time rather than Huddersfield-Sheffield against Wakefield for the first time that season.....

We are what we are thanks to TV, and the BBC must have been delighted at the Bradford.v.Leeds game in the cup recently.