Re: Rumours 2 : Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:36 pm  

Irish Wire wrote: That takes me back. Worked at Loushers Lane for G. & J's from the early 70's for about 20 years. https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/wat ... NnheWsIB40

Irish Wire wrote: That takes me back. Worked at Loushers Lane for G. & J's from the early 70's for about 20 years. https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/wat ... NnheWsIB40

Re: Rumours 2 : Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:32 pm  

Builth Wells Wire wrote:

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-spirit-of-warrington-1981-online?fbclid=IwAR0ziH2jrot2PhP7dvvAYyZkoeN_psPdhDapEK-oMnivjugKWNnheWsIB40

Just my era.
Knew a good number of people personally on that film.
Thanks for that.

Re: Rumours 2 : Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:33 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

The uncomfortable truth Sally. It's also compounded by a sort of mass self denial and wishfull thinking which makes a lot of people think that those players are indeed better than they are. This illusion is shattered once they move on in the downwards direction which is what they inevitably do with the recent exception of Dywer.

I think Dwyer moved in a downwards direction too. Leeds obviously is a huge club but they are going through a period of readjustment following the loss of a lot of great players and he can get more first team opportunities there than he would have here with Clark and Walker. Same with Dom Crosby, he got a 3 year contract which wouldn't have been on offer to him here.

It's a long time since we've lost players 'upwards', in fact since Sculthorpe can you think of any Warrington home grown player who outgrew us and left for an upwards career move? Mike Cooper, and possibly Sibbit although the Storm were not that strong when he was there and he came back after a season. You could cheat and count Toa Kohe-Love going to Hull since we were his first professional club after signing as a junior from NZ.

It must be frustrating for teams like Wakefield and Cas and even Salford who have produced young talent and seen them get tempted away by clubs higher up the food chain, but we don't even have that story to moan about, we haven't produced anybody good enough. The usual route for one of our Academy lads is: play 1-2 games towards the end of a season and then get massively hyped up by people on this forum, "going to make a major breakthrough next year the future is bright the future is Wire" then hang around the fringes of the first team for a few seasons before the forum passes its verdict "not good enough" shortly before the coaching staff pass the same verdict and then they move on to a lower SL or a Championship club.

Respect to Paul Wood, who was a good player, who became one of the better props in SL at a young age and had a long and very consistent career - not quite a superstar in the Harris/Sculthorpe class but undoubtedly quality. But other than him, Cooper, Riley and pre-injury Currie, there hasn't been much to shout about for two decades.

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:25 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I think Dwyer moved in a downwards direction too. Leeds obviously is a huge club but they are going through a period of readjustment following the loss of a lot of great players and he can get more first team opportunities there than he would have here with Clark and Walker. Same with Dom Crosby, he got a 3 year contract which wouldn't have been on offer to him here.

It's a long time since we've lost players 'upwards', in fact since Sculthorpe can you think of any Warrington home grown player who outgrew us and left for an upwards career move? Mike Cooper, and possibly Sibbit although the Storm were not that strong when he was there and he came back after a season. You could cheat and count Toa Kohe-Love going to Hull since we were his first professional club after signing as a junior from NZ.

It must be frustrating for teams like Wakefield and Cas and even Salford who have produced young talent and seen them get tempted away by clubs higher up the food chain, but we don't even have that story to moan about, we haven't produced anybody good enough. The usual route for one of our Academy lads is: play 1-2 games towards the end of a season and then get massively hyped up by people on this forum, "going to make a major breakthrough next year the future is bright the future is Wire" then hang around the fringes of the first team for a few seasons before the forum passes its verdict "not good enough" shortly before the coaching staff pass the same verdict and then they move on to a lower SL or a Championship club.

Respect to Paul Wood, who was a good player, who became one of the better props in SL at a young age and had a long and very consistent career - not quite a superstar in the Harris/Sculthorpe class but undoubtedly quality. But other than him, Cooper, Riley and pre-injury Currie, there hasn't been much to shout about for two decades.

True.

I hope Livett doesn't read this synopsis though. The worry is he could quite easily fall into the usual route unless he progresses in 2019. He's 36 games in now and needs to be nailing a starting jersey. I hope he does have a big year and gets over his injury, he was in sparking form April/May 2018.

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:45 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

True.

I hope Livett doesn't read this synopsis though. The worry is he could quite easily fall into the usual route unless he progresses in 2019. He's 36 games in now and needs to be nailing a starting jersey. I hope he does have a big year and gets over his injury, he was in sparking form April/May 2018.

It seems like a lot of our home grown players struggle to get past the first set back. They start off promisingly, then they lose a bit of form or get an injury, and then never recover. But I've seen Wigan players go through the same cycle, get a harsh verdict of "never gonna be good enough" by their fans and they end up turning it round. There's a different toughness there than with ours.

The one who did come back from set backs was Chris Riley. Two or three times, he found himself down the pecking order and looking like he was on his way out but then came back and re-established himself. Credit too to Mike Cooper who came back from injury set backs.

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:28 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

It seems like a lot of our home grown players struggle to get past the first set back. They start off promisingly, then they lose a bit of form or get an injury, and then never recover. But I've seen Wigan players go through the same cycle, get a harsh verdict of "never gonna be good enough" by their fans and they end up turning it round. There's a different toughness there than with ours..

Which Wigan players you thinking of here Sally? I can think of plenty who have been cast off by Wigan in such circumstances who have either gone on to have decent careers elsewhere e.g. Brown, or fade away completely e.g. O'Carroll.

Wigan play the numbers game. The recruit in bulk and I'd imagine have the worst success rate of any club in converting academy internationals to first team regulars at Wigan.

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:39 am  

I'm referring to the ones who have stayed and been part of Wane's Grand Final teams: there have been lots of moments midway through seasons where Wigan have had bad runs and bad results and some of those young players (and Wane) have been questioned. Pop over to the Wigan forum when they are on a bad run and you will see analysis of how the recruitment has been bad for a while, "something must change at the top" and how various of the young players are overhyped, but they are there at the end of the season.

As you say a lot of players start at Wigan end up being moved on to other clubs, but then go on to having successful careers elsewhere like Kevin Brown. These guys aren't released because they aren't good enough, they just aren't good enough for Wigan. How many players released by Warrington go on to have careers at other leading clubs....? About as close as we ever get to thinking 'was he one that got away' is GO'B kicking a drop goal in the Million Pound Game.

That argument about Wigan playing the numbers game and having the 'worst conversion rate' is a bit disingenuous isn't it.....you can only pick a team of 13 at any one time, and so if you produce a lot of quality players some will leave to go to clubs elsewhere. If Warrington produce 4 world class halfbacks in the next 10 years only 1 of them will have a career with us, unless we find ways to shoehorn them in other positions. I'd be happy for us to have a poor conversion rate if it means we have a surplus and end up feeding other clubs with our rejects, that sounds like a mark of successs.

As for playing the numbers game by recruiting in bulk - if it's that easy why don't Warrington do it? Just recruit more than Wigan.

When the likes of Wires71 and me have a moan about our Academy output rate it's just by looking at the end outputs in terms of over a long period of time, how many quality SL players have been produced. By quality, think the calibre of player who would have a good career at a club with ambitions to win trophies: eg count Ben Westwood as one for Wakefield. By that measure we aren't just below top clubs like Leeds, Wigan and Saints but also behind smaller clubs like Wakey and Cas. It's not as though the club has deprioritised the Academy either, the scholarship was set up back in DVDVs day and we were hearing for years how this was bearing fruit with Warrington having more players in junior representative teams but there hasn't been much coming through to the first team. The club's ambitions have been higher and the quality of team has been higher since TS was there so the bar has been raised for our Academy products when they do make the first team but that's no different to young players that come through in Wigan, Saints or Leeds.

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:29 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

When the likes of Wires71 and me have a moan about our Academy output rate it's just by looking at the end outputs in terms of over a long period of time, how many quality SL players have been produced. By quality, think the calibre of player who would have a good career at a club with ambitions to win trophies: eg count Ben Westwood as one for Wakefield. By that measure we aren't just below top clubs like Leeds, Wigan and Saints but also behind smaller clubs like Wakey and Cas. It's not as though the club has deprioritised the Academy either, the scholarship was set up back in DVDVs day and we were hearing for years how this was bearing fruit with Warrington having more players in junior representative teams but there hasn't been much coming through to the first team. The club's ambitions have been higher and the quality of team has been higher since TS was there so the bar has been raised for our Academy products when they do make the first team but that's no different to young players that come through in Wigan, Saints or Leeds.

I guess it's not a moan more an observation and certainly an area I would be looking to improve as top priority.

Our output is almost nil in decades. I don't know if its a GIGO problem or a developmental issue. Anyhow we should be attempting to emulate Wigan, not criticise their conversion rate.

How many of our youth system, which when leaving Warrington, have gone to SL clubs in the last 20 years?

Who was our last home grown international? Currie was Wigan youth set up.

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:38 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

I guess it's not a moan more an observation and certainly an area I would be looking to improve as top priority.

Our output is almost nil in decades. I don't know if its a GIGO problem or a developmental issue. Anyhow we should be attempting to emulate Wigan, not criticise their conversion rate.

How many of our youth system, which when leaving Warrington, have gone to SL clubs in the last 20 years?

Who was our last home grown international? Currie was Wigan youth set up.

Cooper

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:41 pm  

Good call, although technically he had played for another club before that was achieved.

So who was the last international we produced who gained representational honours having only played for Warrington beforehand