Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:02 pm  

There are too many fan's pressing the panic button,
we are only 2 game's in and we are calling for Tony's head.

I agree the back line is weak but money is available, so who can we tempt to the H.J.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:56 am  

A MIDDLETON wrote:

There are too many fan's pressing the panic button,
we are only 2 game's in and we are calling for Tony's head.

I agree the back line is weak but money is available, so who can we tempt to the H.J.

Rugby league seems to have followed football in calling for coaches head if they lose a game. We've got fans on saints board calling for KC head because we lost to leigh an only won one of our two games this year.

Totally crazy imo
.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:27 am  

A MIDDLETON wrote:

There are too many fan's pressing the panic button,
we are only 2 game's in and we are calling for Tony's head.

I agree the back line is weak but money is available, so who can we tempt to the H.J.

The OP was "As big a fan as I am of Tony Smith, I desperately want us to win the Grand Final. Shaun Wane has won 2 in 4 years. 2017 will be Tony's 8th full year in charge. If we fail again at the big prize this year would it be time to part ways?"

Where is the panic?

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:21 pm  

Wires71 what about this scenario.

It's Warrington v Wigan in the Grand Final again this October. Warrington are 19-2 up at half time but gradually lose grip of the game in the second half as Shaun Wane once again gets Wigan back firing and they fight back with two tries. In the last minute, a Warrington mistake in our own half gives Wigan possession and they score in the corner to make it 19-18. Morgan Escare has the kick to win the game.

If he kicks it, would it be best for the future of the club to replace Tony Smith with Daryl Powell for 2018?

What about if he misses it, does that mean it's best for the future of the club to keep Smith rather than Powell?

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:48 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Wires71 what about this scenario.

It's Warrington v Wigan in the Grand Final again this October. Warrington are 19-2 up at half time but gradually lose grip of the game in the second half as Shaun Wane once again gets Wigan back firing and they fight back with two tries. In the last minute, a Warrington mistake in our own half gives Wigan possession and they score in the corner to make it 19-18. Morgan Escare has the kick to win the game.

If he kicks it, would it be best for the future of the club to replace Tony Smith with Daryl Powell for 2018?

What about if he misses it, does that mean it's best for the future of the club to keep Smith rather than Powell?

Yes that's a good question. As I am advocating that the success criteria be established before the season so a loss would see a coach change (as he would have lost 4/4) and a win he would retain the job as he has proven he can win a GF with a team of his own making. I realise that the decision hangs on a knife edge, but sport is like that.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:14 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Yes that's a good question. As I am advocating that the success criteria be established before the season so a loss would see a coach change (as he would have lost 4/4) and a win he would retain the job as he has proven he can win a GF with a team of his own making. I realise that the decision hangs on a knife edge, but sport is like that.

But is setting that kind of success criteria in advance the best way of making a decision on the club's future?

If Powell is better than Smith for 2018, why should Smith get given an extra year just on sentiment for winning the Grand Final this year. The right business decision is what is best for the club, and if Powell would improve the club then he should be brought in whatever. What's to say that if we carried on with Smith as a reward for the GF win, that Powell was then picked up by Saints or Wigan instead and was no longer available.

But if Powell isn't better than Smith, then why would it be right to bring him in just because Escare missed that kick. Is it worth sacrificing a less good season in 2018, just because you were committing to your success criteria.

I would argue that the belief that "sport is like that" in terms of making decisions on a knife edge, is why a lot of bad decisions are made in sport. The decision on a coach should always be, if X is your coach, is X better than the best available Y at any time. If yes, then keep the coach, regardless of performance. If there's a better Y available, (ie you can realistically get them in), then bring them in and thank X for the memories.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:34 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

But is setting that kind of success criteria in advance the best way of making a decision on the club's future?

If Powell is better than Smith for 2018, why should Smith get given an extra year just on sentiment for winning the Grand Final this year. The right business decision is what is best for the club, and if Powell would improve the club then he should be brought in whatever. What's to say that if we carried on with Smith as a reward for the GF win, that Powell was then picked up by Saints or Wigan instead and was no longer available.

But if Powell isn't better than Smith, then why would it be right to bring him in just because Escare missed that kick. Is it worth sacrificing a less good season in 2018, just because you were committing to your success criteria.

I would argue that the belief that "sport is like that" in terms of making decisions on a knife edge, is why a lot of bad decisions are made in sport. The decision on a coach should always be, if X is your coach, is X better than the best available Y at any time. If yes, then keep the coach, regardless of performance. If there's a better Y available, (ie you can realistically get them in), then bring them in and thank X for the memories.

I understand the point you are making, but any incumbent should be given time to achieve the goals rather than be swapped out the minute someone better qualified becomes available. Not least because of the overhead that is incurred in changing the head coach and the management team. Also not many coaches will be kept on if they lose 12 games in a row (say) and there was no-one better available.

Anyway as far as our board go, just look at what happened after Cullen, we got Jimmy Lowes. Doesn't strike you as the best decision ever made.

Having said that, I only advocated Powell as a last resort if the likes of Des Hasler, Craig Bellamy or Wayne Bennett were not available. If any of them were I would change immediately.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:51 pm  

St pete wrote:

:P Rugby league seems to have followed football in calling for coaches head if they lose a game. We've got fans on saints board calling for KC head because we lost to leigh an only won one of our two games this year.

Totally crazy imo
.

I think it's a little bit different from our point of view. You have won the Grand Final a number of times we have never won it , as your fans and the Sky team enjoy reminding us regularly..
I don't think it's totally crazy that a few Wire fans are getting a little fed up, Tony Smith changed the whole culture of the club 3 Challenge cup wins, 2 LLS's and 3 Grand Final appearances but that doesn't mean he's immune from criticism..
Pretty much every Wire fan knew we needed to strengthen the 3/4 line at Wire but Smith despite the funds and backing available didn't bother..
We sit bottom after 2 winnable games and face a run of 6 very tough games are we not allowed to be concerned?

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:44 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

I understand the point you are making, but any incumbent should be given time to achieve the goals rather than be swapped out the minute someone better qualified becomes available. Not least because of the overhead that is incurred in changing the head coach and the management team. Also not many coaches will be kept on if they lose 12 games in a row (say) and there was no-one better available.

Anyway as far as our board go, just look at what happened after Cullen, we got Jimmy Lowes. Doesn't strike you as the best decision ever made.

Having said that, I only advocated Powell as a last resort if the likes of Des Hasler, Craig Bellamy or Wayne Bennett were not available. If any of them were I would change immediately.

The points in your first paragraph, should be taken in to consideration as part of the decision of whether there's a better option available. You're basically making a judgement on the net benefit of the change option, where you net off the costs of paying off separation settlements, disruption of changing the coaching team. But also where your existing coach has been in place for a while, there may be a potential benefit in change in terms of new ideas, if you can see that things have got stale and decline has set in. I think a lot of the Wire fans that want to change Tony Smith are concerned about this. The reason I am not is because we improved last season - top of the league and two finals was a superb season even though we finished trophyless, its not really evidence to me that things have gone stale under Smith.

Also in the decision of better option you have to assess the risk that a supercoach from one environment might not transfer the results over to a new environment, eg Ian Millward going from Saints to Wigan; Fabio Capello managing England. If Craig Bellamy was available I'd be very interested but we'd need to think about whether his methods would map over to our players. That's where an internal appointment can be a safer option, and guys like Wane, Radford and Noble (at Bradford) were all internal appointments that did very well in their first SL jobs.

On getting Lowes after Cullen I actually think this was a strategic decision from the board, they looked around and saw that there was someone coming off contract with England after the World Cup in a year's time and thought well in the absence of anybody good being around now lets give Lowes a go to tide us over, rather than bring in someone new who was less preferable. If there's nobody suitable available I'd either want to keep Smith until there was, or if he quit, just appoint Agar/Briers to fill the gap.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:30 pm  

Sick of hearing all this tripe!
Alex Ferguson was one game away from getting the sack, Mark Robins scored a match-winner,and the rest is history........T.S. will get it right!