[Uncle Rico]

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:12 pm  

i agree with a lot of what's being said on here and in some instances both sides of the same argument.

In the case of Livett I'm a bit disappointed he's not kicked on and cemented or pushed for a starting place or at least as a regular in the 19. I think he's had chances, have they been enough though? As the other side of this argument for me is whether he'd be better value than Jason Clark and deserved to start, pushing Clark to up his game or ship out.

He's almost certainly better value and if there's no loss in performance then Price should manage that and either replace Clark and keep Livett freeing up some cap for other areas...a top prop or two whilst searching for better options at Loose/SR

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:48 pm  

Widnes Al wrote:

Hasn't it occurred to you that the last 10 years at Warrington has been a big success? For those 10 years Wire have been feasting at the top table, have appeared in more major finals than anyone, have hugely advanced off the field and have attracted some of the biggest stars in world rugby! Why?....because they have the financial clout to do it! If you want to bring youngsters through all well and good and go ahead and invest some money in it but don't take your eye off the big picture! One year of failure maybe all it takes to sentence you back to your most regular position over the years.....amongst the also rans!! You really shouldn't change too much. At the moment you're the envy of an awful lot of other clubs and certainly a huge success story in a lot of peoples eyes!!

Excellent point Al but it is in the nature of fans to look up ie at those who have finished above rather than down

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:47 pm  

Fantastic Mr Catpiss wrote:

This is where i'm at, and why i asked, he's not particularly pacey, he's not got fantastic quick hands or a great offload, he's not a line busting prop, he's not big wide ranging, he's not impactful, and he's not particularly an impressive tackler, so what is his area of expertise?

I mentioned this earlier this season, he had a great opportunity to solidify left 2nd row as his own at the start of the year, at best this season he's been as good as, ben currie who's been coming back from 2 knee surgeries and feeling his way back.

Thats nothing to get excited about.

I have a similar view on Livett.

I think with young players you need to have a decent sample size of games to judge them over, rather than the impression of their first 4 to 5 appearances. This works both ways. You can't write a player off too early and need to give them a decent run of games to see what they can do, but also you need to guard against overhype early on.

What I think happens quite often with young players is they come in to a team in a positive situation (eg being introduced from the bench in a relatively easy match up/ when the team is winning), other teams don't have film on them at this time and so they can have a bit of a grace period until they start having to face defences that have explicitly prepared for them. Mix this with a bit of optimism bias from fans who always hope they have found the next 'big thing' and people extrapolate some bright signs in early appearances in to a prediction of a golden future. Over a longer time frame the player's true ability is revealed, but sometimes when it didn't live up to the early hype people look for explanations like 'the coaching staff ruined them' and so on.

We've had a number of players who suffered from excess expectations because they've been overhyped when they first broke in to the team: Jon Roper, Steve Pickersgill, Kevin Penny, Rhys Evans. Then as time has gone on their limitations were exposed and they didn't live up to it. None of them went to other clubs and stepped up a level - they just looked like the same limited players elsewhere.

I think the basic problem if you compare us to Wigan/Saints is that we haven't brought through the talent in the first place. We've pushed a lot of mediocre players in to the first team, given them their 30 to 40 games and then they just move on.

The issue isn't that talent is unable to succeed at Warrington in a first team environment. We have sometimes taken genuine talent that has been brought through other clubs' youth systems but not established themselves in the first team, and with us that talent has flourished: Lee Briers, Ben Westwood, Simon Grix, Chris Bridge. Now had those guys been on our rosters as juniors, we would have been listing them like Harris and Sculthorpe as examples of big wins for our Academy. Briers and Bridge would not have been given the same opportunities to develop had they stayed at their former clubs rather than joining us.

So for me the issue isn't patience in the first team or giving opportunities to develop, it's that the level of actual talent emerging from our Academy has been well down compared to our SL peers, for a LONG TIME. I can understand being behind Wigan/Leeds/Saints, but we've also been behind Hull, Cas and Wakey in this regard as well, and for all the big PR talk that has come out of the club for decades about youth development it has been a weakness.

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:06 pm  

Well said ,Sally !

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:11 pm  

I have no inside knowledge, so from an outsider point of view my impression is that the club has realised the lack of talent development has been a major issue for many years. What seems to happen though is that there follows major reorganisation after reorganisation. This results in a lack of stability and that no doubt influences parents/players when deciding where to go.
If as a parent my child was offered the opportunity of joining a club with a demonstrable history of developing young players to international level on a regular basis against one that hasn’t but is offering a few extra £ I know which I would favour.
This is part of the problem Wire face.

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 pm  

Captain Hook wrote:

I have no inside knowledge, so from an outsider point of view my impression is that the club has realised the lack of talent development has been a major issue for many years. What seems to happen though is that there follows major reorganisation after reorganisation. This results in a lack of stability and that no doubt influences parents/players when deciding where to go.
If as a parent my child was offered the opportunity of joining a club with a demonstrable history of developing young players to international level on a regular basis against one that hasn’t but is offering a few extra £ I know which I would favour.
This is part of the problem Wire face.

The only way to combat that though is to really, really commit to the youth programme, invest more than our rivals in resources, coaching and facilities. Scout everywhere, work with junior clubs all over the place, Manchester, widnes Oldham, Warrington, even encroach on St Helens and Wigan, I mean they do it to us. It needs results, youngsters need to see some lads who went through the same path that they are on turn professional and play at the club or elsewhere and then it will become easier. The system needs to be proven and only then will it rival that of saints, Wigan and Leeds. If Simon moran wants to leave a legacy that should be it.

Re: Our Glaring Deficiency V2 : Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:46 am  

/quote="CW8"]The only way to combat that though is to really, really commit to the youth programme, invest more than our rivals in resources, coaching and facilities. Scout everywhere, work with junior clubs all over the place, Manchester, widnes Oldham, Warrington, even encroach on St Helens and Wigan, I mean they do it to us. It needs results, youngsters need to see some lads who went through the same path that they are on turn professional and play at the club or elsewhere and then it will become easier. The system needs to be proven and only then will it rival that of saints, Wigan and Leeds. If Simon moran wants to leave a legacy that should be it.[/quote]

Local junior coaches have scant regard for the current Wolves setup. They believe there is no strategy and more importantly no communication between top and bottom. In other words it's a shambles e.g. the recent Rylands scenario where all but one of a very successful junior side ( not sure which age group ) signed for Saints and Wigan. Wolves' development of young players clearly explains this. We need to start afresh and not rely on money to solve our problems. Build a new structure around Henderson so that we are all singing from the same hymnsheet.