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Re: Dec Patton : Sun May 05, 2019 10:12 pm  
the flying biscuit wrote:
The most talented player of a generation.??
he got one cap for Great Britain while Sean long and and a ruck of make shift stand offs filled the GB half back roles.....
Let's be honest Briers showed consistent high standards once he turned 30..... Before that we never troubled the top half of the table.... Patten has already scored in a grand final and he's 23.

So far the great Danny Richardson has let Sean long down and been farmed out to championship clubs. While I saw the latest once in a generation player jake Trueman do nothing again for Cas except a 40/20 kick.

At 23 Briers was the definition of a turnstile. And by 24 he led us to the heady heights of 3 points away from relegation......


Not sure what your point is here, Patton is better than Briers because at a comparable age he has played in a better side?

Who was better Chris Riley or Des Drummond? Riley won three Challenge Cups. Des went to Wembley once and all he had to show for it was breaking Iro's jaw.

As for counting GB caps who was better Billy McGinty or Mark Roberts?

I'd also be interested to know who you think was the most talented British halfback of Briers' generation? Long? Burrow? Horne? Deacon?
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Re: Dec Patton : Sun May 05, 2019 11:19 pm  
Goulding...
Perhaps even Brough.
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Re: Dec Patton : Mon May 06, 2019 12:02 am  
sally cinnamon wrote:
Not sure what your point is here, Patton is better than Briers because at a comparable age he has played in a better side?

Who was better Chris Riley or Des Drummond? Riley won three Challenge Cups. Des went to Wembley once and all he had to show for it was breaking Iro's jaw.

As for counting GB caps who was better Billy McGinty or Mark Roberts?

I'd also be interested to know who you think was the most talented British halfback of Briers' generation? Long? Burrow? Horne? Deacon?


Clearly I'm not saying Patten is better than Briers.

People are writing Patten off as dog poop to quote one phrase.
I'm just highlighting we let Briers get away with some woeful poop for almost a decade before Tony Smith came in and dropped him.....
I think Dec Patten deserves a bit more than the crap he's getting....

And let's not forget in all our wilderspool years of Lee briers our best stand off was a winger called Graham Appo...
I don't remember Lee Briers being a man of Steel contender like Appo was. :WHISTLE:

If Briers was so talented Saints would have kept hold of him and swept up challenge cups grand finals and World club challenges for the next couple of decades..
They didn't they let him go and swept up challenge cups, grand finals and world club challenges. :wink:

I do wish Patten was busier around the park but he's playing in a good team with title ambitions. Briers for the bulk of his career wasn't he could throw out wild interception passes or do crazy chip n runs that didnt come off and no one cared cos we were poop and as long as we tried something we were happy.

People have to remember ordinary just like Paul deacon wins....... talented like Mat le tissier wins chuff all....
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Re: Dec Patton : Mon May 06, 2019 1:06 am  
Not me either biscuit.

Briers would give you one great game and several average at best. And theres always been talk amongst circle's too....and national coaches like Nobby and Smith would have been aware.
Like you said....Briers was good as gone when TS arrived. Briers to be player coach at Barrow....contracts drawn up.
TS helped give us half a decade of superb Briers.
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Re: Dec Patton : Mon May 06, 2019 9:40 am  
Patton is something of an enigma. I have probably watched him more than most as I saw his game when he played in the Academy. Back then he could put in some excellent 5th tackle kicks but was simply not consistent. The following game he would either go missing or you might only see one decent kick. Back then he was also our goal kicker and knocked over something like 70 in a season. He was never a particularly good tackler (but then neither was Briers). But all in all, you would think he was nailed on to be the 1st teams halfback once he had more experience and coaching.

Flash forward 6 years. He is now 24 and I don't think he has changed that much. His short kicks to the in goal area have become his main threat and have certainly provided us with tries. He can also move the ball at speed in tandem with Austin. His long kicks are 'ok' when he puts one in, but Austin is the main man here. Tackling can still a problem. Support play backing up a break is normally fairly good. Overall he is doing an 'ok job' in support of Austin, but no more. Why has he not developed any further ? The only thing I can suggest is speed of thought. All players will have a plan in mind when they get the ball, but they have to adapt if the situation changes, or say a slip by their marker presents an opportunity. Declan may simply not have the speed of thought that Briers did. When Briers moved the ball at speed down one of the edges he always seemed to be dangerous. If he was closed down you would see a short kick through or change of direction. And he was a master at the interception try, where if he missed the ball, our try line was at the mercy of the opposition centre / winger. Declan doesn't seem capable of that. All too often he runs into the opposition line, or sends a pass down the line when his receiver is a marked man. Playing next to Austin is certainly a big disadvantage because everyone can see and compare the two. But I don't feel he has got what it takes if our aspirations are always to be a top 4 side.
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Re: Dec Patton : Mon May 06, 2019 10:54 am  
I'm with Sally on Briers being the most talented of his generation if we also include Long and Goulding. Long is above the other two, because he applied himself properly during his career. Others were more successful than Briers because they applied themselves better (Deacon, the Leeds triumvirate). I think Brough is one level down, as were Robinson, Horne, Orr etc
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Re: Dec Patton : Mon May 06, 2019 3:47 pm  
I think this stuff about Briers not applying himself is overstated. Look at the length of time he played the game, and he wasn't injured that much - other than that half season when he broke his wrist and Appo had his golden run filling in at 6, I can't remember Briers having long layoffs. If he'd been as indisciplined off the field as the legend had it he would never have survived like that in SL.

I think Briers suffered from a lack of good guidance around him for a long time. I sometimes watch back Wire games I'd videoed from the DVDV era. I forgot actually how great the atmosphere was at Wilderspool back then, despite the rocky performances. In some of those games Briers was totally manic. Running about, pointing, arguing with refs, shooting out of the line in defence. If momentum was going against us in a game, you knew he was going to kick out on the full. He lacked the calm presence of mind that Sinfield, Long and McGuire had from a much younger age. The one thing he always had though was the ability to break a line and break a defence, even of good teams. Patton doesn't have that.

Some of that could have been because the younger Briers played in a weak side and was always a big name in our dressing room so maybe people pandered to him a bit and his rough edges were encouraged. If he'd have been in the Bradford or Leeds dressing rooms, he would have had much more mental discipline drilled in to him. I remember I used to think people sucked up to Briers too much. You'd have all those "Briers for Britain" campaigns with people saying we would have beat the Aussies in 2001 if only David Waite had picked Briers and I was like really? I remember one time one of the trade papers speculated that Warrington were set to lose Briers to one of the big clubs and we wanted to replace him with Dunemann from Halifax, and I hoped it was true.

BUT, there have been many stories of 'wayward talents' at halfback who have faded away, and Briers is the only one, who year by year ironed out his own faults and got to a point where he hit his 30s still in peak shape as a raw talent but with total understanding of the game. Watching him in his 30s was complete halfback masterclass. He had good attacking weapons around him then and he knew how to use them. Compare Briers to the guys who came through around the same time: Harris, Deacon, Pryce, Horne, Cooke, Thorman, even Long, all faded to varying degrees as they entered their 30s. Briers was the only one who got better. [The Leeds guys Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire are in a category of their own, for career-long consistency].

The most interesting comparator to Briers is Harris, who he was signed to replace. They were both outstanding talents, but their careers were like mirror images. Harris as a teenager and early 20s dominated Super League, Man of Steel, great leader and so on, then he became less effective as he aged. Briers dominated SL in his 30s. Now who had more talent out of those two? If you saw Harris coming through in his early days with us you'd say he was a once-in-a-generation talent, and with the attitude to match. Nobody ever said "if only he had applied himself more" about Harris, he was the model professional. He had all the cool calm presence and leadership of Sinfield and so on. But the game moved on and left Harris behind. For all his great attitude, he wasn't able to adapt with the way defences changed during the 2000s. Briers adapted with the game and thrived. He cut some things out of his game like the long cut out ball and keeping trying for the interception and instead of just bombing a fullback hoping for a mistake he became a ruthlessly accurate target finder of the winger making an attacking jump, first with Fa'afili (before TS was on the scene), then King, Hicks and Monaghan. Harris on the other hand was still floating along the line looking for gaps that weren't there, throwing his long floaty pass that said "pick me". When we sold Harris for £375k and signed Briers for £65k or whatever it was, we would have seen that as deal of the century if we'd have known how their careers turned out.

A couple of final points on the Goulding and Long comprisons made in posts above. Goulding fits the story of "could have been a great if he'd applied himself" that people often give to Briers. Goulding sabotaged his own career with his off field behaviour which is why he spent the latter years of his career being pushed about teams at the bottom end of the table rather than being the best halfback in the league and winning Challenge Cups like Briers. Out of these three players though, Goulding was the most limited because he was basically just a kicking player. Long...an interesting story of a player who got in to trouble off the field but, like Briers, was able to adapt with the game. The younger Long had more calm focus than the younger Briers which is why he was more successful for a long time, although I did think he declined towards the end and at Hull he was a shadow of the player he used to be. In terms of raw talent, I think Briers had a bit more to his game compared to the post-injury Long, but the younger Long (pre-2001) had more because he had genuine pace. The young Long, had a bit of Jonathan Davies about him, in that he had a disciplined kicking game but also had the speed to go through a gap and then accelerate away to leave the chasers for dead rather than getting hauled down by a cover tackler. After he came back from injury he was never express pace any more, which was a shame.
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Re: Dec Patton : Thu May 09, 2019 11:23 pm  
Great post.

I think we can agree that Patton is not in the same league as those players you mention in your post no matter how much people kid themselves he is.
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Re: Dec Patton : Fri May 10, 2019 11:20 am  
....and no matter how much we are kidded...there still remains a strong possibility that Patton may have his name written into history as the scrum half of one of the greatest teams in decades.
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Re: Dec Patton : Fri May 10, 2019 11:39 am  
At the end of the day, he isn't our first choice half this season, nor next. Price has decided to stick with him rather than panic buy and he has to take responsibility for that as a coach. We're second in the league and not doing too badly (plenty of room for improvement) so I'd guess Price has an argument for not rushing to replace Patton. We also have the possibility of Brown coming back in July, or using the spare cap space if needed.

The other perspective we need to take is this - last year's marquee signing probably contributed less than this year's back up half-back. Could be worse.
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