Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:48 pm  

Would they not use Lee Briers? Do you think In time Lee would be our manager?

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:35 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

Or scenario C, we pick up a couple, or three wins, get some players back, build a bit of momentum and be close enough to make a creditable assault on a top four place during the top 8 play offs?

It would be very difficult to get top 4 if we lose 6 of our first 7, and given that we have Wigan, Saints away and Hull in our next four games I think its a likely outcome in the form we are in.

A turn around is not impossible. Last season Hull lost three in a row in February/March and there was pressure on Radford but they went on a great winning run after that. But we would really need a Hull style turnaround as to make top 4 you probably can't afford to lose more than 9 or 10 in the whole season.

The irony is that had this current Super 8s and top 4 format been around back in 2011 we wouldn't have had to deal with Leeds in the playoffs...

[Uncle Rico]

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:23 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

It would be very difficult to get top 4 if we lose 6 of our first 7, and given that we have Wigan, Saints away and Hull in our next four games I think its a likely outcome in the form we are in.

A turn around is not impossible. Last season Hull lost three in a row in February/March and there was pressure on Radford but they went on a great winning run after that. But we would really need a Hull style turnaround as to make top 4 you probably can't afford to lose more than 9 or 10 in the whole season.

The irony is that had this current Super 8s and top 4 format been around back in 2011 we wouldn't have had to deal with Leeds in the playoffs...

The key word is scenario and in mine I had us winning a game or two more from the first seven...fingers crossed

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:44 am  

Didn't Saints lose 6 games one year at the start of the season to get rid of Royce Simmons ,then as soon as KC got the job they won nearly every game ? I'm sure they got to Old Trafford too, possibly the Ben Flower final.

In the good old days before the fans turned on him.I believe most of them think there are too many old Saints players on the backroom staff.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:08 pm  

Since we seem to have entered the world of scenarios, what set of circumstances would realistically precipitate the sacking of TS ?

Scenario 1
I guess if we had a year when we dropped into the middle 8's, then we would certainly see a drop off in attendance at the HJ and I think that might send the traffic lights to amber as far as Simon Moran is concerned. Fans would certainly grumble, ST holders would fall and we would likely see some player departures and perhaps a big name or two recruited. But just like Leeds last year, I don't think TS would get the sack or that we would see fans on the street burning effigies. Sport is fickle, sides have good and bad patches, runs of injuries, plus Lady Luck also plays her part. There would be disquiet because we thought it was our year, but hope springs eternal and we have been here before.

Scenario 2
If we had two bad years and another visit to the middle 8 naughty step, then yes, I think that could well be a breaking point. In fact it will be interesting to see what happens at Leeds this year, although knowing Uncle Gary the need to make a severance payment is likely to be just a major stumbling point. At that point attendances at the HJ will have plummeted and SM will have had time to look at alternative options. The point about who would replace TS is a good one. Marry in haste, repent at leisure, and I don't see a queue of good alternatives to Smith at the moment. If you were an Aussie coach would you really wish to come over here to immerse yourself in a low quality game that was slowly dying on its feet along a narrow strip of motorway ? Perhaps there is someone who likes missionary work and we should not be so cynical.

Scenario 3
We don't win the GF, but we oscillate around in the top four group of clubs, occasionally winning a CC and the LLS. Attendances are likely to remain relatively stable, fans will grumble but accept the status quo whilst still hoping for an elusive GF win. Does anybody really believe that fans would demand change ? When I look at the Wire booking system on line I can see that there are more reserved seats this year than last - our ST holders seem to have increased, presumably because of our two finals last year. My take is that fans in general are happy to accept this situation whilst still hoping for the big prize. Personally, under this scenario, I think the quality of play on offer is far more of a threat to attendances than not winning the GF.

I suppose I can sum all that up by saying I don't think there any chance of TS being kicked out this year because he didn't win the GF.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:51 pm  

Winslade's Offload wrote:

Since we seem to have entered the world of scenarios, what set of circumstances would realistically precipitate the sacking of TS ?

I'm not sure he should be sacked... more 'replaced' at the end of the season. He has had a long time and things just feel like they have gone stale. For me, we are under performing in all areas.

Recruitment - For me its been very poor, even lazy. We have seen big money spent on poor quality/heartless players (Lineham, Asotasi, Sandow.. even sims) . We have also given deals to players that left everyone baffled and alot of people laughing. All of them came to fruition. Wheeler, Bailey (he even had to have a meeting with the players to explain this one), Blythe (coming soon).. Then when he does bring someone back who plays well (Penny) he never plays him, even though he had seemed to be doing really well.... Our good signings seem to be few and far between... and they are hardly great bits of recruitment.... What i mean by that is anyone can go and throw lost of money at the MOS. Its hardly a great find (im not knocking us going out and getting the best, i think we should be). Also the way some of our senior players have left the club has left a sour taste...... Look at how much money we have spent/players we have brought in, then look at our backline. You can make a case for needing replacements in every single position.

Rugby on offer has been poor to watch.... yea last season we scooted our way to 2 finals, which we lost.. But the rugby on offer was really bad to watch. It has been for 2/3 season now. The cavalier, swashbucking side of 2011 has been replaced with a flat, scooting side who looking devoid of creativity when it matters. Its not nice to watch and its not a winning style. Wigan arent good to watch either, but they get the job done.

Big game mentality - well as we haven't won a final for 5 years now, it has to be in question. Our biggest highlight since Briers retired, appears to be winning a friendly game against Brisbane. You cant keep blaming it on bad luck forever.

infact if you flip it round and say 'what areas is Tony Smith excelling in?' You would be hard pushed to find any really since 2012. Yes Rugby League on the whole is on the slide a bit. But i do feel we are behind the curve when it comes to the playing side.

He has done alot for this club, so i dont want to see him go out on a bad note. But i just dont get all this sentimentality around him. He was the right man at the right time. But now i dont think he is.... EVERYTHING is in place behind the scenes for this club to be the very best. Training facilities, spending power, academy, clubs business model... all absolute top notch.

It's a shame we didn't win one of those GF's, as im pretty sure Smith would have left on a high as it would have been 'job done'. But we didnt, and it isn't.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:44 pm  

morleys_deckchair wrote:

He was the right man at the right time. But now i dont think he is....

Fair point, but who could replace Smith at the present time? I don't just mean in terms of winning the GF, I'm thinking more of regular finals, top 4 etc.

I'm concerned that if Smith goes we go from being not quite good enough for the GF win, to not good enough for the top 4. I'm struggling to think of ANYONE, including Daryl Powell, who could pretty much guarantee us top 4 let alone a trophy or the elusive GF.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:47 pm  

morleys_deckchair wrote:

I'm not sure he should be sacked... more 'replaced' at the end of the season. He has had a long time and things just feel like they have gone stale. For me, we are under performing in all areas.

Recruitment - For me its been very poor, even lazy. We have seen big money spent on poor quality/heartless players (Lineham, Asotasi, Sandow.. even sims) . We have also given deals to players that left everyone baffled and alot of people laughing. All of them came to fruition. Wheeler, Bailey (he even had to have a meeting with the players to explain this one), Blythe (coming soon).. Then when he does bring someone back who plays well (Penny) he never plays him, even though he had seemed to be doing really well.... Our good signings seem to be few and far between... and they are hardly great bits of recruitment.... What i mean by that is anyone can go and throw lost of money at the MOS. Its hardly a great find (im not knocking us going out and getting the best, i think we should be). Also the way some of our senior players have left the club has left a sour taste...... Look at how much money we have spent/players we have brought in, then look at our backline. You can make a case for needing replacements in every single position.

Rugby on offer has been poor to watch.... yea last season we scooted our way to 2 finals, which we lost.. But the rugby on offer was really bad to watch. It has been for 2/3 season now. The cavalier, swashbucking side of 2011 has been replaced with a flat, scooting side who looking devoid of creativity when it matters. Its not nice to watch and its not a winning style. Wigan arent good to watch either, but they get the job done.

Big game mentality - well as we haven't won a final for 5 years now, it has to be in question. Our biggest highlight since Briers retired, appears to be winning a friendly game against Brisbane. You cant keep blaming it on bad luck forever.

infact if you flip it round and say 'what areas is Tony Smith excelling in?' You would be hard pushed to find any really since 2012. Yes Rugby League on the whole is on the slide a bit. But i do feel we are behind the curve when it comes to the playing side.

He has done alot for this club, so i dont want to see him go out on a bad note. But i just dont get all this sentimentality around him. He was the right man at the right time. But now i dont think he is.... EVERYTHING is in place behind the scenes for this club to be the very best. Training facilities, spending power, academy, clubs business model... all absolute top notch.

It's a shame we didn't win one of those GF's, as im pretty sure Smith would have left on a high as it would have been 'job done'. But we didnt, and it isn't.

I'm pretty much with this. The idea from the previous poster that we can carry on with 2017 and 2018 as failure is not going to be acceptable to even the most die hard Smith fan.

I genuinely hope he turns it round and delivers a GF win. Just the signs are not very promising at the moment.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:49 pm  

easyWire wrote:

Fair point, but who could replace Smith at the present time? I don't just mean in terms of winning the GF, I'm thinking more of regular finals, top 4 etc.

I'm concerned that if Smith goes we go from being not quite good enough for the GF win, to not good enough for the top 4. I'm struggling to think of ANYONE, including Daryl Powell, who could pretty much guarantee us top 4 let alone a trophy or the elusive GF.

Top 4 is not guaranteed with Smith neither historically or for 2017 unless we have a drastic turnaround.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:50 pm  

easyWire wrote:

Fair point, but who could replace Smith at the present time? I don't just mean in terms of winning the GF, I'm thinking more of regular finals, top 4 etc.

I'm concerned that if Smith goes we go from being not quite good enough for the GF win, to not good enough for the top 4. I'm struggling to think of ANYONE, including Daryl Powell, who could pretty much guarantee us top 4 let alone a trophy or the elusive GF.

Non one guarantee's top 4. And the question 'who replaces smith' isnt one really people on a message board need to have the answer for.. There are people paid very well to find and recruit players and coaches.

I'm not concerned one little bit that if Smith goes we wont be good enough for the top 4... The club is well run and is a very attractive proposition for someone to coach.

Tony Smith isnt this magical man that sweeps everything before him is he? Far from it these last 4 seasons.