: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:15 am  

If we get the man we want, ie, Smith, then this situation is perfect really. He comes in now, alot of the squad have contracts up at the end of the season, he gets a good look at who he wants to keep, release etc. He's here nice & early for recruitment, which starts June time generally, if there's a capture to be had from the NRL, he can target who he wants, then the UK anti tampering deadline etc, we move into 2010 with a freshened up squad, as we've a fair few off contract this year.

Smith must be an easier target now than he was pre World Cup. He's on his last year of contract, he'd could easily go dual role if needed. And if the RFL did release him, they get some compensation for a man who's going to walk away in a few months anyhow. It didn't look viable pre World Cup, he was the man to deliver it, now, it looks doable (?) to me.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:24 am  

JWP wrote:

If we get the man we want, ie, Smith, then this situation is perfect really. He comes in now, alot of the squad have contracts up at the end of the season, he gets a good look at who he wants to keep, release etc. He's here nice & early for recruitment, which starts June time generally, if there's a capture to be had from the NRL, he can target who he wants, then the UK anti tampering deadline etc, we move into 2010 with a freshened up squad, as we've a fair few off contract this year.

Smith must be an easier target now than he was pre World Cup. He's on his last year of contract, he'd could easily go dual role if needed. And if the RFL did release him, they get some compensation for a man who's going to walk away in a few months anyhow. It didn't look viable pre World Cup, he was the man to deliver it, now, it looks doable (?) to me.

Plus he wouldn't have anything to worry about England wise, as his next game is not going to be until the mid season test with France. Having a club role will also give him chance to scout out players he could use in that test and also the Four Nations at the end of the season.

And with the money invested in the club at the moment, I don't think compensation would be an issue should it come to that.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:54 am  

Couldn't agree more with this title, to many people are laying the blame at the feet of the coach and not on the players.
Players who are under performing, players who simply are not good enough and players who seem to want the coach gone themselves.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:48 pm  

Rugbychick™ wrote:

Thing is, with the exception of a handful, the players are all different from a few years ago. So is it the small band of the same players (Briers, Bridge, Wood, Gleeson etc) that are the problem, or something much deeper?

Problem is, ther r too many overpaid "has beens"

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:58 pm  

WireFanatic II wrote:

Seconded.

Worked for Cato

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:09 pm  

Rugbychick™ wrote:

Thing is, with the exception of a handful, the players are all different from a few years ago. So is it the small band of the same players (Briers, Bridge, Wood, Gleeson etc) that are the problem, or something much deeper?

The club has been an underachieving shambles for years. People often talk about the teams of the 80s with primrose and blue tinted glasses but if you look at final league positions we were still as inconsistent as we have been recently.

For as long as I have watched Warrington we have been more often than not mentally weak on the field and inept in the boardroom.

How this long standing culture can be changed, I have no idea.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:13 pm  

OK, where do we start.

Is it the players fault?
Is it the coaches fault?
Is it the boards fault?

Firstly, let's look at the playing staff. Take away any personal dislike for any players currently in the squad and ask yourself are the players we have got, ability wise as good as the other squads in SL.

Personally, I think they are. Just read down the list, there are some excellent players in the squad with some very good youngsters to boot.

So, why aren't they performing like they should.

Attitude could be a reason. Frustration could be a reason.

What could their thoughts be when Lowes was appointed coach, never mind what they said publicly, I'm more interested in what they would think privately as we all know it would be foolish to come out and slate the head coach.

Surely, when Lowes was appointed full time there was murmours of discontent amongst the players. Another untried coach was to use an excellent squad for his learning curve into SL coaching, but not just that, with Lowes it was his first head role. Why? Why are these players again being used as guinea pigs to further someone else ambitions. We had it with Cullen, is the same going to happen with Lowres? that was my feeling and I'm sure some of the players must have felt the same.

If some players aren't happy with the coaching staff, I would imagine they aren't giving 100% in training or indeed on match days. As a team, they seem to have a laissez-faire attitude and give the impression that they don't care.

Do they question Lowes tactical prowess in training or do they think, give him enough rope and he'll hang himself. Some of these players have worked with excellent coaches, some of the best, do they think during training, christ, what the hell are you on about.

There doesn't seem to ba a team spirit witnessed amongst other teams, such as when they force an error or when scoring a try, rushing over to applaud or even console players when they make errors. Certain individuals have it such as Penny, but it doesn't seem to flow through all the players, as if they would all die for each other. All for one and one for all doesn't seem to be the motto used in the dressing room.

I don't doubt players have personal pride, but they should be playing for team pride. This should be instilled by the coaching staff and that's what I think could be one of the problems. If the players don't respect the staff how are they going to take on board what they are saying.

I think this attitude could have something to do with all the errors we make on the field. We seem to make many more than the opposition, the facts may disagree, but that's the impression when I watch. Silly and stupid errors as well, such as Riley not dealing with the kick and Blythe giving a pen away as soon as he came on. I'm not having a go at the youngsters by the way, there's more experienced players at fault as well. But they are basic, schoolboy errors that shouldn't be happening as regularly as they do. Again, are these errors the result of poor concentration, which is fed by the attitude the players have, which in turn is fuelled by the dismay at the coaching staff.

As for Lowes, who can blame him for taking the job, I won't. it was his ambition and it was offered, fair play, take it. But, he makes a rod for his own back. His attitude since taking over or should I say his public persona has not been the best. Again, it doesn't look like he's taking it seriously, I'm not saying he isn't, just the impression I get.

Again, last night, if reports are correct, getting into verbal attacks with oppo supporters is not what I expect from a head coach or any coach or staff. He should be concentrating on the game as a whole, he should have better things to think about.

I personally wasn't happy about his treatment with Penny. Taking him off the field, are most potent attacking player when we go 2 points behind Saints doesn't seem the most logical thing to do. We had to score to win the game and Penny is one of our best options. But, and this is a big but, we never seemed to have a game plan that would actually utilise Penny's abilities when he's in the team.

We can look at his game plan as a whole. We have King, a very tall 3 quarter. Do we bombard the oppo defence with high balls looking for King? Nope.

Do we look to put Penny away with a long kick to utilise his pace similar to what Leeds did with Calderwood? Nope.

Do we know what a bomb is? Nope.

Do we have link plays, run arounds with our half backs? Nope.

Scrums? Don't get me started.

Grubbers into the in goal? very rarely.

On the defensive side, our goal line defense is shocking and has been for a while and before Lowes was brought in. Every time a team gets in our 10 they look like they will score. This is the major problem that hasn't been addressed. Why? I don't know but I doubt it's down to the players and more to do with the defensive structure we use. But, that is down to Lowes and the coaching staff and to be honest, I get the impression he is currently out of his depth managing a SL club.

The board.

To be honest, they have done a hell of a lot of good to the club, the stadium, the infrastructure, the community work etc, a lot more good than bad. What they haven't been able to do though is to bring in a top coach to match the quality of the playing staff. This is their biggest downfall and probably the biggest problem with the club from what I can see.

When Cullen left I felt it was imperative to get the best coach they could no matter what it takes. They could throw money at Johns to entice him over for a cameo playing role, well what about throwing money at something more important, a head coach. Go and ask the top coaches will they come over if we make it their worthwhile, if you don't ask, you don't get.

Personally, I think it's too late this season as trying to attract a top coach now will be very, very hard. It could be that the rumours are true and Tony Smith is already in line for the role, but what about this season, what about us who have bought season tickets again. Are they really prepared to write this season off whilst they wait for the man they want. If so, that's not acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

So, who is to blame? In my view, it's all concerned but there's only one part of the club that can answer to it and that's the board, they need to sort it out, relieve Lowes of his duties and get a top class coach in as soon as possible.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:16 pm  

keithcun wrote:

OK, where do we start.

Is it the players fault?
Is it the coaches fault?
Is it the boards fault?

Firstly, let's look at the playing staff. Take away any personal dislike for any players currently in the squad and ask yourself are the players we have got, ability wise as good as the other squads in SL.

Personally, I think they are. Just read down the list, there are some excellent players in the squad with some very good youngsters to boot.

So, why aren't they performing like they should.

Attitude could be a reason. Frustration could be a reason.

What could their thoughts be when Lowes was appointed coach, never mind what they said publicly, I'm more interested in what they would think privately as we all know it would be foolish to come out and slate the head coach.

Surely, when Lowes was appointed full time there was murmours of discontent amongst the players. Another untried coach was to use an excellent squad for his learning curve into SL coaching, but not just that, with Lowes it was his first head role. Why? Why are these players again being used as guinea pigs to further someone else ambitions. We had it with Cullen, is the same going to happen with Lowres? that was my feeling and I'm sure some of the players must have felt the same.

If some players aren't happy with the coaching staff, I would imagine they aren't giving 100% in training or indeed on match days. As a team, they seem to have a laissez-faire attitude and give the impression that they don't care.

Do they question Lowes tactical prowess in training or do they think, give him enough rope and he'll hang himself. Some of these players have worked with excellent coaches, some of the best, do they think during training, christ, what the hell are you on about.

There doesn't seem to ba a team spirit witnessed amongst other teams, such as when they force an error or when scoring a try, rushing over to applaud or even console players when they make errors. Certain individuals have it such as Penny, but it doesn't seem to flow through all the players, as if they would all die for each other. All for one and one for all doesn't seem to be the motto used in the dressing room.

I don't doubt players have personal pride, but they should be playing for team pride. This should be instilled by the coaching staff and that's what I think could be one of the problems. If the players don't respect the staff how are they going to take on board what they are saying.

I think this attitude could have something to do with all the errors we make on the field. We seem to make many more than the opposition, the facts may disagree, but that's the impression when I watch. Silly and stupid errors as well, such as Riley not dealing with the kick and Blythe giving a pen away as soon as he came on. I'm not having a go at the youngsters by the way, there's more experienced players at fault as well. But they are basic, schoolboy errors that shouldn't be happening as regularly as they do. Again, are these errors the result of poor concentration, which is fed by the attitude the players have, which in turn is fuelled by the dismay at the coaching staff.

As for Lowes, who can blame him for taking the job, I won't. it was his ambition and it was offered, fair play, take it. But, he makes a rod for his own back. His attitude since taking over or should I say his public persona has not been the best. Again, it doesn't look like he's taking it seriously, I'm not saying he isn't, just the impression I get.

Again, last night, if reports are correct, getting into verbal attacks with oppo supporters is not what I expect from a head coach or any coach or staff. He should be concentrating on the game as a whole, he should have better things to think about.

I personally wasn't happy about his treatment with Penny. Taking him off the field, are most potent attacking player when we go 2 points behind Saints doesn't seem the most logical thing to do. We had to score to win the game and Penny is one of our best options. But, and this is a big but, we never seemed to have a game plan that would actually utilise Penny's abilities when he's in the team.

We can look at his game plan as a whole. We have King, a very tall 3 quarter. Do we bombard the oppo defence with high balls looking for King? Nope.

Do we look to put Penny away with a long kick to utilise his pace similar to what Leeds did with Calderwood? Nope.

Do we know what a bomb is? Nope.

Do we have link plays, run arounds with our half backs? Nope.

Scrums? Don't get me started.

Grubbers into the in goal? very rarely.

On the defensive side, our goal line defense is shocking and has been for a while and before Lowes was brought in. Every time a team gets in our 10 they look like they will score. This is the major problem that hasn't been addressed. Why? I don't know but I doubt it's down to the players and more to do with the defensive structure we use. But, that is down to Lowes and the coaching staff and to be honest, I get the impression he is currently out of his depth managing a SL club.

The board.

To be honest, they have done a hell of a lot of good to the club, the stadium, the infrastructure, the community work etc, a lot more good than bad. What they haven't been able to do though is to bring in a top coach to match the quality of the playing staff. This is their biggest downfall and probably the biggest problem with the club from what I can see.

When Cullen left I felt it was imperative to get the best coach they could no matter what it takes. They could throw money at Johns to entice him over for a cameo playing role, well what about throwing money at something more important, a head coach. Go and ask the top coaches will they come over if we make it their worthwhile, if you don't ask, you don't get.

Personally, I think it's too late this season as trying to attract a top coach now will be very, very hard. It could be that the rumours are true and Tony Smith is already in line for the role, but what about this season, what about us who have bought season tickets again. Are they really prepared to write this season off whilst they wait for the man they want. If so, that's not acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

So, who is to blame? In my view, it's all concerned but there's only one part of the club that can answer to it and that's the board, they need to sort it out, relieve Lowes of his duties and get a top class coach in as soon as possible.

Great post, Keith.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:56 pm  

getdownmonkeyman wrote:

Are the performances due to the players following Lowes instructions or realising his techniques don't work and try to fix then?

Interesting point, my sentiments exactly, do the players have no confidence in what the coach is doing? If you were a world class player at Real Madrid and Paul Ince was appointed as manager would you seriously listen to him if you didn't agree with his tactics/coaching? Probably not but on the other hand if Jose Mourinho was manager......well i will let you draw your own conclusions on that.

: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:54 pm  

I can't recall Warrington ever having a really good coach. You've had very average coaches for years and that's led to very average results. The expectations have risen in the last 3 or 4 years though and that means average results aren't accepted by you lot anymore (at least they shouldn't be).

You have a few players that are simply not good enough for a team challenging for honours, but on the whole I think you've got a reasonable squad, a squad that can certainly challenge for a trophy. The problem is that they are not being coached correctly.

It works both ways, you need complete commitment from the players, but you also need a coach who will be respected by the players. How do you motivate 'superstars' who have a poor coach? I imagine the Warrington players look on at Saints and Leeds in envy at the coaches we've both had in recent years wishing they had proven coaches who demand the absolute best from their players and have a proven track record.

I think if you brought in a world class coach, you'd see big improvements over a period of 12 months. The attitude of the players in particular would dramatically improve.