So the trump card is actually a fact I have used to support my argument. OK.



Don't you think we have stuck with the coach through the barren years 2013,2014,2015,2016,2017*

Maybe we should emulate Saints and try something new.



Just where are we in disagreement? What is your your position - Keep Smith and open letters are rubbish? Or are you just being contrary.





*Likely to be barren also.

To be fair, the clue was in the thread title.

The McDermott situation is an unfair comparison. He won lots of silverware then one year lost most of his experienced squad members whilst at the same time losing most of the preseason work due to the floods.



What we are taking about with Warrington is mediocrity for a few years followed by a good season without silverware followed by a clear decline in the ability of the squad. Remind me why he needs one more year? To prove what? We can finish mid-table with some new signings next year.



No wonder other big clubs' fans laugh at our pathetic blind hope. Maybe next year. Maybe next year we'll not finish in the bottom four. I can't wait.

I am not "JUST being contrary" at all i am trying to offer a balanced view that seemingly doesn't quite sit well with others including you and that's fine btw.



I can't disagree with the "trump card" as it is a fact what I can't fully accept is that ultimately it's use will only lead to one conclusion, rendering any other argument lost/not worth having. For example we have an open letter, the club pulls itself around we make the top 8's and win the cup, but, the answer is sack TS because we haven't won the GF yet again.



This may be the correct course of action, but, in a discussion sense it would appear that we are all wasting our time until we come to your way of thinking?

Not sure how stupid Tony Smith thinks Warrington fans are.



He'd like to win both competitions this season WOW!! I'd like to win the lottery no chance of that happening either

[urlhttp://www.totalrl.com/warringtons-season-not-hinge-wigan-cup-tie-says-tony-smith/[/url

"...when you draw someone like Wigan, it brings the best out of you hopefully. It was only a matter of a few weeks ago when both teams put on a strong game of rugby league, arguably the pick of the games at Magic Weekend.”



Our first game against Wigan didn't inspire me as it was a massive loss and we didn't look in it from the kick-off.



The Magic weekend game was awful and both teams did not put on a strong show IMO. A close game doesn't mean both teams played well.



Is this just a positive soundbite for the media, or does Smith genuinely believe we aren't playing that badly? I keep hearing this guff of 'fine margins' and 'not much between top and bottom', but we are so far off the pace of the top 7 clubs and have been all season. Anyone can see that, even if we are ripping it up in training as we keep being told.

Not sure I'd class '13 and '16 as barren, they were both very good seasons? Unless by that you just mean we didn't win the CC or SL?

Some people on here really need to lighten up.... We came top of the table last year, got to both finals and lost by the skin of our teeth. As a result we qualified for the WCC Which was brilliant. We've had a Add to disastrous season so far, but it's not over yet... So if me and the other Trolls can keep our spirits high, Why cant you?

Your funny I like you....





You cannot even be typing that with a straight face what does last seasons lls and failure to win two finals have any bearing on how we should feel after watching us play 18 games only win five and be in a 191pt deficit in the for and against Collum with no real signs of anything changing or the fact that we are looking to bring in mid season signings to try n make sure don't get relegated I think last time we did it was with johns in the ambition to try and win the gf but yes we should be happy in the general direction the club is going on as we nearly won something last year lmao

barren

ˈbar(ə)n/

adjective



[ishowing no results or achievements; unproductive.

[/i



Yes I don't class making finals and losing as an achievement. A final is a chance to achieve, not an achievement in itself. In the 5 years since 2012



Wigan - 2 SL Wins, 1 CC Win, 1 WCC including double

Leeds - 2 SL Wins, 2 CC Wins, 1 WCC, Including double

St Helens - 1 SL Win

Hull - 1 CC Win.

Warrington - 0.



I would suggest all the clubs have the same budgets and would have recruited a fair number of their squad in that 5 year cycle. So why do we have nothing to show for it ?

Why have you changed Leeds from 'including treble' to 'including double'?



Is it because the Leeds treble included winning the LLS and therefore if you're taking that into consideration, you'd have to acknowledge the fact we won it in 2016, therefore giving us a bit of credit and not fitting in with your argument?

Yes. It was not fair of me to include a Hub Cap in a treble when I don't, personally, class it as a significant achievement for the purposes of the post, so I edited it.



Anyway I get it. You believe LLS and making finals and losing signifies a good achievement, I don't. We are allowed to have different views. I would suggest though, based on the posts on here, not many share your view whereas on Facebook some seem to.

I always thought that our more successful peer club do think that they have won the treble and not even fans of their bitterest rivals poo poo that

Some more fantastic Smithisms in the media from SportingLife:



The two coaches, when asked about the importance of Saturday's game, and the implications of losing:



" Wane will not allow himself to think about the consequences of another loss this weekend. He said: 'It is unthinkable. Lose a quarter-final, semi-final, and you're not going to Wembley. To lose this Saturday you wouldn't contemplate it'. "



" Wolves boss Smith, who has been under the greater pressure, said: 'It changes nothing either way, win or loss'. "



Has this apathy and mindset filtered down to the players over the last few seasons? Is it an intentional tactic to put the players under less pressure? Because it damn well didn't work in the two finals last year.

Smith sure gets on my wick with his blasé monotonous stock answers. We'd only hear ss if he was talking confidently mind.

I've become quite annoyed with his downplaying of the widnes games over the years, i think i hit my limit during the game they beat us with 12 men. Again, as above, you wouldn't hear Wane downplaying a match against a rival team like that.

I don't deny that. I was asked why I didn't include it in my post and I answered.

Could he care any less I wonder? I'm not a rugby virtuoso like him but surely it changes whether you have a chance of winning a pot this year doesn't it? And how the fans enjoy the season? If it doesn't matter if we win or lose why is he busy trying to sign players to hide his atrocious recruitment?



He is so far in a comfort zone at Warrington it is not true.

I read that, but, then you tried to validate your stance by referring to other posters on here and pressing your point using 'Facebooker's'.



I know it's a Smith Out thread but I wonder whether the fans of say Castleford or Wakefield agree that Leeds 'only' won the treble?

I don't need to validate my stance to anyone. It's just my opinion and that's what forums are for. I posted the facts on last 5 years CC and GF winners and how we compare. Not my fault it makes uncomfortable reading.



I don't know why you seem to pick up on my posts so frequently. If you don't agree then fine. If you want a debate, post some facts that counter my argument. I don't understand what point you are trying to make?

Leeds won the treble, not the double, that's a fact. If you're going to state facts then at least get them right and not manipulate them to suit your argument or agenda.



If we had of beaten Hull at Wembley and Wigan at Old Trafford last year as well as finishing top, would you not be acknowledging the LLS and the treble then? Or would it just have been the double in your eyes?

I don't deny that you or anyone else has a right to post their opinion and agree that is what forums are for. So whether I agree with your or others opinions matters not, in fact I think that it is a positive thing that we all don't share the same opinion every time on every subject.



However, where we might disagree is that I feel that it is important now and again to validate your opinion otherwise the argument has little chance of reaching the level of a debate. I think that it is a bit unbalanced to get your Collins English Pocket Dictionary out and post a definition of barren then discount certain successes as not up to your mark to maintain your position.



I don't understand why you included the Challenge Cup you could have gone for the GF 'jugular', or started your clock at 2012 instead of at the start of Smith's tenure, unless it didn't make our reading quite so uncomfortable? I could post some facts based on Smiths tenure and include the LLS but I don't think that would cut the mustard with you, or as you state quite a few others on here.



FWIW I think that the current TS regime has now run its race. At the moment I'm unsure whether that's him and Agar going, or him getting in different help say a Briers/Morley combo, I suppose that depends on how much truth there is in the lost dressing room rumour?



Finally, I do pick up on your posts quite frequently, mainly on the basis that you post frequently, you are opinionated and generally include some 'facts' which is all good (not that you need my validation of course). We may have even ended up at the same place on this subject it's just that our 'journey' has taken a different route particularly the timing and measure of our dissatisfaction.

The lls is a trophy and makes up a double but most clubs would have it as their 3rd choice trophy. If we won the gf and lls that has more presteige than either individually as undisputed best team in the league over one game and a season.



The reality is we've only made it to 33% of the gf's available to us under smith and lost 100% of those gf we have reached facts and stats can be presented in a way to suit an argument but they are facts that show that we've not really progressed under smith whatsoever the cc wins should have been a springboard into a period of dominance but it's as if the club felt they had reached their goals or were happy with a few cc wins and smith had got himself a job for life.



He should have gone at the end of last season on a relative high with winning the lls but yet again failing in two more finals! I enjoyed the first period of his time with us as there was always a feeling we could win the gf and the old saying there's always next year but last few seasons that feeling we willl win it or are even close tobeinningbthe grand final anybanything other than that is not acceptable don't need to sack a coach every time we misss out on it but I want to get the impression that the club fans and staff are not 100% happy with anything other than a gf win!

That pretty much sums it up. I think there's a slight chance we could win another Challenge Cup with Smith, but an absolute zero chance of ever winning a grand final. I also feel we'll be having one okay season followed by a nagf season followed by an okay season, and so on... and we'll all be on here making excuses and staying next year things will be better. And fans of other clubs will still laugh.



I'm resigned to the fact that nothing will change though for a long time. The old boys club will see to that. In the meantime I'll just enjoy watching Evans and Pomeroy fight it out for that centre spot. Exhilarating.

Please don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you what to do. I presented the facts on GF and CC wins to show how woeful we have been. I am perfectly entitled to do that. As you re perfectly entitled to convince yourself they were great achievements.