Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:31 pm  

Barbed Wire wrote:

Is Ashton safer at kick retrieval? Or positionally? I honestly don’t. His kick retrieval isn’t the best, and Ratchford appears far better at communicating with his defensive line. Support play is great, and like I’ve already said the new coach may prioritise this skill over other, but for our current coach and his current system, he can’t do what is required.

Ashton’s chance will come, but I don’t think it’s now. He can’t play the role that the coach wants from his fullback. While his pace is useful, he can do that from a wing. Lineham, who is dreadfully slow, gets plenty of chances in the corner. And, especially in the Leigh game, we went to the left early and found Widdop and King in a bit of room, he could turn those into points from the wing while he develops his craft.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Ashton. He’s exciting, and that’s why we buy our season tickets, to be excited and entertained. But the coach wants the pivot option. And it works, see Lineham’s try reel.

Re: Ratchford exploiting gaps, while they are getting rarer he has shown the ability to break the line and get into the backfield over a long period. Magic weekend at Newcastle, the tip ons from Currie on the penalty tap, when we do get quick play the balls and he’s in at dummy half he can get in behind. The issue is, we don’t get quick play the balls.

Our pack is a 3 man job, Clark, Hill and Cooper. Philbin can be effective off the bench, but the rest are wet mattresses. Currie is a luxury back rower, doesn’t make a lot of meters and doesn’t knock anyone over. What he brings is the pass/kick threat which creates space outside of him. Hughes, well, is an enigma in attack. I don’t know what he contributes going forward. And the revolving door of J Clark, Davis, Sita etc whoever make up the numbers are really just there to hold the scrum up.

While we complain about props, and I am in that camp, you can get away with it if you have proper back row forwards who carry the ball. If we had Westwood and L Anderson/Waterhouse in the back row, who carried the ball 20 times a game and made meters while HITTING people, bending the defensive line and getting quick play the balls, you could justify having Ratchford at loose and Ashton at fullback. Nimble players to take advantage of half breaks and defenders that aren’t set. But with people who are carrying the ball slowly, getting knocked backwards and playing it slowly, you could have the fastest man in the world on your team, but he won’t have any breaks to support.

Ashton, for me, is not big enough to be on the wing neither is he a pure finisher. He'd just get bundled into touch all the time similar to Kevin Penny.

Looking at the stats per game at fullback for Ashton and Ratchford, Ashton makes more meters, takes more carries, makes more average gain and scores more tries.

Obviously there are no stats for positional awareness or communication however again, I think you're overrating Ratchford's ability to be a third pivot. I've seen him throw many passes into touch.

The one thing this team badly lacks is genuine pace. Charnley has lost his, Lineham isn't as fast as he once was, the same with Currie. We literally only have Ashton and Mamo who give us raw speed and that many defenders wouldn't be able to catch and both seldom ever play. You compare that to Wigan and Saints and the likes of French, Grace, Makinson, Manfriedi, Gildart, Marshall. Our backs literally have no pace.

If you were to put both players (at the same age) with the same attributes they have now into the NRL and made each side pick I would be confident that every NRL side would chose Ashton.

Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:43 pm  

I think if we had more attacking ,running threats in the opposition 20 , the lack of pace would not be a problem. We need to be slicker at creating gaps instead of relying on kicks to the corner which make life difficult for the goal kicker.

Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:17 pm  

rubber duckie wrote:

No at all. It was a gorgeous day, Coote had a mare because he wasn’t match fit.

I meant he had a mare, nothing to do with the weather. Experienced players make mistakes, young players make mistakes. They are not robots and if sport was decided by some algorithm we might as well all give up and play Fifa or some such game.

Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:03 pm  

I don’t blame Coote. He shouldn’t have played and missed some games after it. The coach called it. I was thrilled to bits when I saw him down to play.

Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:05 pm  

ninearches wrote:

I think if we had more attacking ,running threats in the opposition 20 , the lack of pace would not be a problem. We need to be slicker at creating gaps instead of relying on kicks to the corner which make life difficult for the goal kicker.

This relates to my point. While you call for slicker attacking, that comes on the back of creating space. Rugby League is number manipulation, it’s finding a way for you to have more attackers than there are defenders. This can be done by sweeping attackers from one side of the ruck to the other, but by far the simplest way is by taking people out of their defensive positions. Running harder, busting the line, leaving people on the ground takes numbers out, it then, makes defenders move in to patch the gap where that defender should be, moving in one by one, to plug gaps. It’s then a case of waiting for someone to not move in, or beating them on the outside.

Slick moves are great, but if it’s 6 vs 6 on one edge, the defenders just need to nominate and not miss their individual tackle. You need to find that extra man, or wait for a mid-read and punish it.

If we had a dominant pack, we could have Ratchford at loose with Clark and Ashton in the middle running riot, Austin would benefit also. It would be electric. But our pack just don’t give us that platform.

Re: Tom Lineham : Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:07 pm  

Barbed Wire wrote:

This relates to my point. While you call for slicker attacking, that comes on the back of creating space. Rugby League is number manipulation, it’s finding a way for you to have more attackers than there are defenders. This can be done by sweeping attackers from one side of the ruck to the other, but by far the simplest way is by taking people out of their defensive positions. Running harder, busting the line, leaving people on the ground takes numbers out, it then, makes defenders move in to patch the gap where that defender should be, moving in one by one, to plug gaps. It’s then a case of waiting for someone to not move in, or beating them on the outside.

Slick moves are great, but if it’s 6 vs 6 on one edge, the defenders just need to nominate and not miss their individual tackle. You need to find that extra man, or wait for a mid-read and punish it.

If we had a dominant pack, we could have Ratchford at loose with Clark and Ashton in the middle running riot, Austin would benefit also. It would be electric. But our pack just don’t give us that platform.

One of ashtons coaches described him as similar to ratchford in that he can play wing fullback and in the halfs very well and applies him self 100 to each position and like ratchford hes a player you just want on the pitch.

Powell will have some interesting choices to make !! Oneof the trickiest will be what to do with ashton. And I think that its linked to what happens with tom lineham if lineham is offered a new contract or not. One of the things powell does well is pick his best TEAM not best individuals.

Re: Tom Lineham : Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:14 am  

Perhaps that is our problem Dezzie . We don't have a team, just a set of individuals.

Re: Tom Lineham : Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:21 pm  

Occasionally with Price, we have looked like a team that is greater than the sum of its parts - most notably in the 2019 cup run and Wembley in that backs to the wall defensive effort against the Saints.

The thing that has always been missing is leadership and having players with the charisma and character to right a losing situation. When the momentum goes against us in a game or when we're on a bad run, lots of our big names, including all the fan favourites on here, immediately become anonymous. We go through the motions and let the game run away from us. Teams don't play us thinking, "well we're 18-6 up now, but you know what Wire are like...the backlash will come and it could quickly be 18-18". They probably think, just keep the pressure on now and they will go dormant, they won't test us, they'll just try to complete their sets and not get shallacked.

The player I really miss is Nat Wood (can you believe its 16 years since he retired), he would just say ok give me the ball and I'll run at these feckers and lets change the tone of the game.

Re: Tom Lineham : Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:30 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Occasionally with Price, we have looked like a team that is greater than the sum of its parts - most notably in the 2019 cup run and Wembley in that backs to the wall defensive effort against the Saints.

The thing that has always been missing is leadership and having players with the charisma and character to right a losing situation. When the momentum goes against us in a game or when we're on a bad run, lots of our big names, including all the fan favourites on here, immediately become anonymous. We go through the motions and let the game run away from us. Teams don't play us thinking, "well we're 18-6 up now, but you know what Wire are like...the backlash will come and it could quickly be 18-18". They probably think, just keep the pressure on now and they will go dormant, they won't test us, they'll just try to complete their sets and not get shallacked.

The player I really miss is Nat Wood (can you believe its 16 years since he retired), he would just say ok give me the ball and I'll run at these feckers and lets change the tone of the game.

NatWood, the man, the legend.....absolutely used to love watching him play, never sure what he was going to do but always entertained me and really seemed to buy in to being a Wire.

Re: Tom Lineham : Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:22 pm  

Lineham would have no problem getting a decent deal elsewhere. Disciplinary is a problem but who is managing players at Wire????