: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:48 am  

DParky wrote:

Pee poor atmosphere there tonight and the final winning margin flattered Widnes somewhat.

For sixty minutes York were well in with a chance but superior fitness showed plus the fact that Lord Lucan AKA TKL decided to pull on a jersey and then play to score a high quality hat-trick.

Craig Hall is a handy signing at this level.

Widnes look at their most dangerous when Smith takes flight from dummy half and I thought he had a pretty good game tonight. Gannon went well and boy were Widnes glad to have Gaskell in. His dummy half runs killed York at times.

Varkulis went on at 2nd row and looked far more useful while Pickersgill I thought went really well, particularly in his first spell on the field.

York had good performers themselves in fullback Ratcliffe, the March brothers, Mark Applegarth and Chris Clough - those two used late footwork to good effect with applegarth able to hit and spin and get the offload away. Paul Hughes at hooker was the revelation in the game until around an hour in when the York challenge began to fade, but its the second time i've seen them this season and they are of very similar quality to the bottom 4 sides in our competition and deserve credit for the way they try and play.

A fair assessment Mr P, it's nice to see you Leythers taking the trip down to the Stobart.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:13 pm  

GetThemScallyWags wrote:

It may surprise you to know that business decisions can often be taken when the processes aren't working out right and not just for the financial reasons you so eagerly claim.

The set up at the club hasn't been working, Cullen is here to change that.

HTH

True. but they can also be a sign of potential trouble.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:16 pm  

GetThemScallyWags wrote:

What utter rot. Keep taking the drugs lad.

You don't answer the questions I asked though.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:08 pm  

a.n Other wrote:

You don't answer the questions I asked though.

Ok just for your benefit then.

How can signing players on load be a sign of stability?

Explain then how it can be a sign of instability? I'll give you two reasons (already explained to you by AJ) why these loan signings mean nothing in terms of financial stability. We recruited poorly in the off season leaving us short in key positions. We've off loaded players who haven't performed or who cannot commit to the training regime. Given our options PC does not see any players who can sign permanent deals that could offer us better than our loan signings do.

They may only be there for a month? Workington have just signed loads of players on loan and i wouldnt imagine that people think that they are a stable club currently.

How can you compare us with a club like Workington? A division lower than us, operating on a much lower budget, with much lower crowds. Many loan deals end up being rolling month to month deals anyway.

Is SOC getting cold feet? Promised to kepp the squad full time then goes back on his word.

Did he promise to keep a full time squad? Point me the direction of that quote please.

Sacking coaches,

A coach who consistently failed to achieve even with everything at his disposal. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it quite the norm to sack an underperforming coach?

Bringing in one that doesnt appear to be any good.

In your opinion, which doesn't appear to be particularly well informed. Cullen took Wire from relegation fodder to top 4 in SL. Can't have been that bad a coach surely?

Might have have the Championship version of Newcastle Utd on our hands.

Like I said, keep taking the drugs.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:10 pm  

a.n Other wrote:

True. but they can also be a sign of potential trouble.

So, even in the face of all the facts about our club and recent events going on there, you're still unable to be convinced that our problems are far from being financial?

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:39 pm  

a.n Other wrote:

You don't answer the questions I asked though.

a.n Other wrote:

How can signing players on load be a sign of stability?

So what do you regard as unstable at Widnes?

a.n Other wrote:

They may only be there for a month?

Some will some won’t. Other players will come back from injuries to replace the players that leave.

a.n Other wrote:

Workington have just signed loads of players on loan and i wouldnt imagine that people think that they are a stable club currently

Right, so you’re saying that Widnes are the same as Workington?

a.n Other wrote:

Is SOC getting cold feet?

Is this your little fantasy?

If not then you have no idea what is going on here.

a.n Other wrote:

Promised to kepp the squad full time then goes back on his word. Sacking coaches, Bringing in one that doesnt appear to be any good. Might have have the Championship version of Newcastle Utd on our hands

No club can be full-time in this league. The salary cap hamstrings clubs like Widnes. That’s the way it is. There’s nothing SOC can do about that.

a.n Other wrote:

you have appointed Mick Cassidy, but sacked John Stanky

Paul Cullen is making all these changes. Mick Cassidy was coming in as conditioner and was not a direct replacement for Stanky. With our players now training in the evening, Stanky’s full-time job was not feasible or value for money. He was offered the job part-time, but he declined and left.

While it’s a shame to lose John, we are not a SL club and have to cut our cloth accordingly.

a.n Other wrote:

The main thing is....your chairman stating you will be full time until you are in SL. So your squad was mainly part time with a few full timers...so instead of SOC funding a FULL full time squad to change your season...he has opted for the part time option....is this and investment...or a cost cutting

The bulk of the side were full time (9 of them.). Unfortunately the salary cap makes it impossible to recruit a complete full-time side in the lower leagues. Ste Mac was the one who recruited the squad and instructed TOC as to their terms. His poor recruitment and subsequent results got him fired. Cullen is now sorting out the mess left behind by his predecessor.

It’s not an ideal situation, and we have to rebuild the squad again, a squad that Cullen wants to be largely part-time. It would be very foolish to pretend that Widnes are in some sort of crisis, we are not. Write us off at your peril.

I do find your attitude a bit rich to be honest. When your club can fund a full youth system, equal to Widnes’ and match our attendances, you may have something to crow about. At the moment your club can’t even fund a reserve side.

I would suggest putting all your eggs in the first team basket will back fire on Halifax come licence time, no matter what they win. So I would concentrate on some major issues that your own club need to sort out before preaching to others.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:15 pm  

So what do you regard as unstable at Widnes?

The Widnes squad is very unstable as Hall, Penny, Pickersgill are their for one month. Then what? Who fills the gaps when they go? Tough to work on a seasons goal and where you are heading when a number have no idea how long they are staying. Is that stablilty for the players? For me its not!

Some will some won’t. Other players will come back from injuries to replace the players that leave.

But you Widnes fans claim your players signed by you are poor. You have Morrison back and Gaskill so who else is quality that is injured and is going to turn your season around?

No club can be full-time in this league. The salary cap hamstrings clubs like Widnes. That’s the way it is. There’s nothing SOC can do about that.

Widnes were creating a picture in the off season as well as the early season that they were full time. The Salary cap is doing a good job as its made the divison very tough and stopped clubs over spending like Widnes have done in the past. The fact Widnes have wasted money and have poor team spirit is not the fault of the cap. You do not need money to win things-though it does help. Hard work, good team spirit and having the right coach and right blend of players. This is something Widnes do not have and Cullen is making noises to make himself look good. Why has it took him so long to make such vital changes? Why have Widnes still often under performed under Cullen?

Paul Cullen is making all these changes. Mick Cassidy was coming in as conditioner and was not a direct replacement for Stanky. With our players now training in the evening, Stanky’s full-time job was not feasible or value for money. He was offered the job part-time, but he declined and left.
Cullen is making changes but they are hardly great changes. Penny-weak defence. Hall-Weak defence. Pickersgill is likely a good move as in the forwards you are weak where even a novice to the game could see! Widnes cant really afford to lose any more games this year as then it puts HUGE pressure on them for next year.

The bulk of the side were full time (9 of them.). Unfortunately the salary cap makes it impossible to recruit a complete full-time side in the lower leagues. Ste Mac was the one who recruited the squad and instructed TOC as to their terms. His poor recruitment and subsequent results got him fired. Cullen is now sorting out the mess left behind by his predecessor.

You do not need a FT team to be at the top of this League as Fax and Barrow are showing. But Widnes and SOC feel they need to buy success instead. Its always Steve Mc who gets the blame but you cant tell me TOC and others were not involved. And its clear some of the Widnes players have been stealing a living. But its easy to blame Steve Mc instead of looking at the real problem.

It’s not an ideal situation, and we have to rebuild the squad again, a squad that Cullen wants to be largely part-time. It would be very foolish to pretend that Widnes are in some sort of crisis, we are not. Write us off at your peril.

You did not need to totally rebuild as players like Smith were still at the club. Its amazing that Batley on less money, new coach etc manage to beat Widnes. Doncaster have lost many players yet are still putting up a decent fight in games. Team spirit and team building does not take a whole season to do. Stop making excuses and ass licking Cullen- he is a poor coach and not the right coach for Widnes.

I do find your attitude a bit rich to be honest. When your club can fund a full youth system, equal to Widnes’ and match our attendances, you may have something to crow about. At the moment your club can’t even fund a reserve side.

We can field a reserve team but not much point in a comp which had teams fail to turn up! It was also that not many youngsters were good enough to step up to what the Fax first team required. Next year will see the return of the reserves. I bet SOC is funding many of the things you have in place rather than your club being so well run compared to the rest. Your crowds are the best but for how long when you keep losing and even having to let people in for free!

I would suggest putting all your eggs in the first team basket will back fire on Halifax come licence time, no matter what they win. So I would concentrate on some major issues that your own club need to sort out before preaching to others.

If Fax get in to SL then good. But we certainly are doing rather well on the Stadium front, First team, Crowds keep increasing with no letting the crowd for nothing. There are areas to work on but then I expect most SL teams and all the rest of the championship have. Widnes are in the crap and fans are either making excuses or fearing for the SL franchise as their is no way you look like being there the way things are!

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:25 pm  

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

The Widnes squad is very unstable as Hall, Penny, Pickersgill are their for one month. Then what? Who fills the gaps when they go?

Paddy Flynn, John Duffy, Lee Paterson and Scott Yates. If Hall goes, then Varks will go back into the centres. I’m not saying we will be the best team in this division. With these players back, but we are not the best team in this division with the players we have now. Not all of the loan players will go back to their clubs. Some, if not all, will probably stay until the end of the season anyway.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

Tough to work on a seasons goal and where you are heading when a number have no idea how long they are staying. Is that stablilty for the players? For me its not!

You don’t have to worry about it though do you?

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

But you Widnes fans claim your players signed by you are poor. You have Morrison back and Gaskill so who else is quality that is injured and is going to turn your season around?

John Duffy, Lee Paterson and Scott Yates.

It’s not that most of the players Ste Mac signed are just poor. Some are, some aren’t. It is the balance of the squad, which Ste Mac got wrong, particularly with regards to the pack. We have far too many back rowers and back rowers playing at prop. We end up relying too muck on youngsters in an already lightweight pack. The training set up was horrendous, with players only training once a week and some not being able to attend at all. Ste Mac even had his own personal agreements with certain players that meant they could just phone up and let them know when they couldn’t attend. These are agreements outside of their contracts. That is totally unacceptable, and the reason why Paul Cullen turned up for his one training session with only a handful of players to train. Hopefully, now that we have 3 nights of training, performances will improve. Obviously there will be some players who will not take kindly to having their contract changed, and that may cause some animosity and possibly affect team spirit. So, until PC can field a team of players that are happy with the new training regime and new culture at the club, it may take time to improve our performances.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

Widnes were creating a picture in the off season as well as the early season that they were full time.

There was some talk that we would be fully pro, but it clearly turned out to be impossibility with the salary cap we have. Perhaps it was wrong for people at the club to make this statement before assembling this seasons squad.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

The Salary cap is doing a good job as its made the divison very tough and stopped clubs over spending like Widnes have done in the past.

I’m not against the salary cap. I mentioned it because, whatever else it does, it effectively prevents clubs assembling a fully pro team.

Is a Halifax fan preaching about the dangers of going bust? Now that is rich!:lol:

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

The fact Widnes have wasted money and have poor team spirit is not the fault of the cap. You do not need money to win things-though it does help. Hard work, good team spirit and having the right coach and right blend of players. This is something Widnes do not have and Cullen is making noises to make himself look good. Why has it took him so long to make such vital changes? Why have Widnes still often under performed under Cullen?

I think I’ll wait until he’s been in a position to assemble his own side before I decide how good Cullen is or not.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

Cullen is making changes but they are hardly great changes. Penny-weak defence. Hall-Weak defence. Pickersgill is likely a good move as in the forwards you are weak where even a novice to the game could see! Widnes cant really afford to lose any more games this year as then it puts HUGE pressure on them for next year.

All this is just your opinion. I have noted it and filed it under B1N.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

You do not need a FT team to be at the top of this League as Fax and Barrow are showing. But Widnes and SOC feel they need to buy success instead. Its always Steve Mc who gets the blame but you cant tell me TOC and others were not involved. And its clear some of the Widnes players have been stealing a living. But its easy to blame Steve Mc instead of looking at the real problem.

You cannot buy success with the salary cap, so you’re talking utter poop.

Ste Mac chose the players and set up the training regime. TOC is involved in the contract administration and some community work. SOC helps fund it. So yes it’s Ste Mac’s fault.

Simples.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

You did not need to totally rebuild as players like Smith were still at the club. Its amazing that Batley on less money, new coach etc manage to beat Widnes. Doncaster have lost many players yet are still putting up a decent fight in games. Team spirit and team building does not take a whole season to do. Stop making excuses and ass licking Cullen- he is a poor coach and not the right coach for Widnes.

Like you said, that’s why we have a salary cap. It helps level the teams and promotes a more even game. It’s always hard up a Batley. We are, however sitting in 3rd place, with our poor team.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

We can field a reserve team but not much point in a comp which had teams fail to turn up! It was also that not many youngsters were good enough to step up to what the Fax first team required. Next year will see the return of the reserves.

Youth development is a major part of the licence criteria and it will be vital to have in an expanded SL.

If there’s no point in having a reserve side, then why have one next season? Too little too late imo.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

I bet SOC is funding many of the things you have in place rather than your club being so well run compared to the rest. Your crowds are the best but for how long when you keep losing and even having to let people in for free!

We do very well for crowds in this division, and Halifax have not overtaken yet. This helps fund the club. The new shop is a massive success and we have great sponsors in Stobart for the shirt and stadium sponsorship. Having no rent to pay on the stadium is helping immensely. We are not entirely reliant on SOC, but it’s nice to have him there.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

If Fax get in to SL then good. But we certainly are doing rather well on the Stadium front, First team, Crowds keep increasing with no letting the crowd for nothing. There are areas to work on but then I expect most SL teams and all the rest of the championship have.

And good luck to you.

The Lucky Black Cat wrote:

Widnes are in the crap and fans are either making excuses or fearing for the SL franchise as their is no way you look like being there the way things are!

So you’ve written Widnes off totally then?

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:30 pm  

I think the Leigh fans should be concentrating on their own problems after today's drubbing by Halifax. Dear oh deary me.

: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:12 pm  

The difference is we didn't come out pre season and say that we should be in the finals and in the top two....

The Leigh side this year will contest 5th/6th at best.