: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:27 am  

TV BOY wrote:

I have to say our government and previous governments foreign policies dont help matters. Gazza is a prime example.

Did he smuggle some Chinese in his suitcase when he came back from his stint in China?

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:34 am  

Mookachaka wrote:

wembley 71......... all you can come up with is that im a racist (which im not) and that i cant spell very good hahahahahaha

you no im right!!!!!!!!

download the manifesto as well.......... youll see that BNP is not a group for nazis, but a group which speaks the true and uses common sense which is lacking in todays government

There is a warning to us all here: that the price of democracy is eternal vigilance.

A number of intelligent and considered posters on this site have voiced their concerns about the levels of immigration into the UK, the assistance given to incomers while the indiginous population struggles, and the perceived change in the nature and character of our towns.

These are issues of genuine concern to people. Often their fears as exaggerated or based on misunderstandings... incomers don't get priority in the benefit system, but if an immigrant gets something before a local it will seem that way, even if they are both waiting in the same line and judged by the same criteria. Equally, if a drunken scrote does something stupid on a Saturday night, that's par for the course, but if that scrote is foreign, then they will be remembered for that alone... even if the proportion of idiots in that overseas community is much lower.

But the concerns that people have are real, and it is important for them to be addressed...

...and it is VITAL that the dangerous, malicious evil that lurks far to the right of our politics is not allowed to use this scratch on the surface of our society, and to creep into the body politic and infect us all with its poison.

The BNP is a neo-fascist party. It is not stupid, which is why it is dangerous. It no longer holds up banners saying 'send them back'. It is careful to construct its PR and manifesto to sound a populist note... being proud to be British, wnating to preserve our traditions and values. Of course it says the things that it thinks will win it widespread support, not universal condemnation.

But the traditions and history of the BNP make it quite plain what it is: a Nationalist, racist party which would gladly turn the UK into a race-riven latter-day apartheid-South Africa, or worse.

Its policies are based on lies, its appeal is based upon stirring up hatreds and creating socail breakdown. The BNP and its predecessors have done that from the Blackshirt rallies in the 1930s to the skinhead marches on the 1970s.

The BNP represent what real Britons (and Australians, Indians, Pakistanis, Poles, West Indians, etc etc.) fought and died to stop in WW2. They are neo-Nazis. They thrive on fear and conflict, they seek to create disorder and distrust so they can grow strong on the power of the hatred they stir up.

And in Leigh... my beloved Leigh, land of my family and my history, this rugged little town, resilient to countless kickings from government after government, stripped of its town hall, its railways, its pits and its mills, but still a proud, dignified community, with its Jamaican rugby stars and its Ukrainian club, its Indian food factory, with its protestant Parish Church where my grandad played the organ, and its catholic community sending plater after player up the road to HP (now LSV)...

...Leigh, too, is not immune to the poison of the far right. The economy falters, jobs are hard to come by, people are struggling a little.. and right away the Nazis are there, whispering their evil lies into people's ears.. blame the poles, blame the gypsies, blane the foreigners... and its easy to pick up on it... there are immigrants who are also scammers, cheats, thugs... and they give credence to the BNP lie...

...but whatever the legitimate concerns that decent Leythers have, about their work and their families and their future, the BNP is not and never will be the solution... they seek only to be the problem, to magnify and stir up the discontent. Rational debate, peaceable times and happy communties do not have a place for the BNP. The BNP want crisis, fear, and hatred, because without it their message has no audience.

In this discussion, people who are barely literate have sought to determine who's entitled to call themselves English... well, so be it, there will always be idiots. But smart and decent people have wondered whether the BNP might have a point. The answer is no, no, never.

Why do I spend such time banging on about this? Because this is the front line in the fight against fascism. Hitler didn't sieze power in Germany, he was voted in, by decent, reasonable people who wondered if the far right might have the answer. The worst evil humanity can inflict on itself does not present itself as such... it comes waving the country's flag and talking about pride and glory.

We live in a society where you are allowed to hold any views, practice any religion, be born of any ethnic group, and to have the same opportunity as the next person to make something of yourself. You are born free of the threat of torture, in a land which provides you with education, healthcare and social security, a safe and trustworthy police force, a free and fair juduciary.

These things are very rare in the world, even today, and they took generations to achieve, and countless lives to secure and defend. Our land isn't prefect, heaven knows that's true, but what we have is so much greater than we sometimes know.

These things are what make us British and proud. These are the things the BNP would take apart and destroy. The BNP are the opposite of British, they are a parasite, a cancer seeking to turn the cells that hold our society together against themselves. They are the enemy, far more than asylum seekers, Polish plumbers or Australian NL players.

That's why I write so much and so often. I love my country, my history and traditions. The BNP would destroy all that. Never, never give them an inch... they'll take your freedoms if you do.

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:48 am  

Excellent post.

I would also question what is English tradition anyway?

After all these lands were invaded by the Romans, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans - so when push comes to shove we all have some foreign blood in us anyway.

Yes there are social problems, high unemployment (I see enough of this in my working life), crime etc but the BNP in my book isn't and never was the answer.

Vote for them and risk letting in a future like that film "V for Vendetta."

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:05 pm  

W71, I doubt any reasonable person could disagree with the overall virtues of your posts, however, I get the impression you honestly think there is no problem whatsoever.

Now, I agree with pretty much everything you have said previously about a decent society, but I know there is a problem.

I am strongminded and as stubborn as a mule, so not many persuade me into things I dont like, particulalry some halfwitted bigot waving a 'send em back' sign.

But my eyes and ears are open, and like it or not there is a problem.

Denying it and then waxing lyrical about the sins of the BNP or any other extremist group for that matter, is in my opinion burying ones head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

If people accepted that our weak immigration policy has created serious social issues, rather than shouting 'Nazi!!' at anyone who dares query it, then it might actually help us deal with the issues properly rather than creating a 'them and us' mentality which is pretty much what you are doing by lumping those know there are problems into the same camp as Nazi thugs.

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:29 pm  

Alexs Dad wrote:

W71, I doubt any reasonable person could disagree with the overall virtues of your posts, however, I get the impression you honestly think there is no problem whatsoever.

Now, I agree with pretty much everything you have said previously about a decent society, but I know there is a problem.

I am strongminded and as stubborn as a mule, so not many persuade me into things I dont like, particulalry some halfwitted bigot waving a 'send em back' sign.

But my eyes and ears are open, and like it or not there is a problem.

Denying it and then waxing lyrical about the sins of the BNP or any other extremist group for that matter, is in my opinion burying ones head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

If people accepted that our weak immigration policy has created serious social issues, rather than shouting 'Nazi!!' at anyone who dares query it, then it might actually help us deal with the issues properly rather than creating a 'them and us' mentality which is pretty much what you are doing by lumping those know there are problems into the same camp as Nazi thugs.

What I wrote (and with guys like you, Starbug and Mr Chairman in mind) was:

"a number of intelligent and considered posters on this site have voiced their concerns about the levels of immigration into the UK, the assistance given to incomers while the indiginous population struggles, and the perceived change in the nature and character of our towns.

These are issues of genuine concern to people....
...the concerns that people have are real, and it is important for them to be addressed..."

We don't live in a perfect world. Some of the things needed have been done (Aussie style points system for immigration, compulsory language and cultural tests), and some of the problems are more the result of press scaremongering than of genuine disadvantage to local and prioritising newcomers. But in both perception and reality, there are issues to be addressed...

...but there is nothing in the BNP to offer any hope, support or solution to any of the problems raised. Even dealing with the BNP on thier own terms.. for instance, the BNP website says:

"ECONOMY - British workers first!

Globalisation, with its export of jobs to the Third World, is bringing ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities that depend on them. Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers."

Now, protectionism of this kind would lead to the ruin of the British economy. Setting up import barriers would do two things... it would make most products we currently import far too expensive for the ordinary person to buy, and it would kill the entire British export trade. It would massively reduce the wealth of the nation, isolate us from the global market, and wreck British economic deveelopment. It would collapse the standard of living in the UK and impoverish us all. There are two economies which operate on this basis... Cuba and North Korea. Anyone want to change places with them?

Here's another one:

NORTHERN IRELAND - an end to sectarianism!

Britain has shamefully allowed the terrorists in N.I. to come close to winning when the IRA could have been destroyed years ago. Government weakness has led to hundreds of deaths and given those same terrorists a share in government.

Does anyone really think the Good Friday Agreement, and 12 years of peace in Northern Ireland, was a shameful act by the British Government? Talking with the IRA led to peace and co-operation, unprecedented growth in the province to the benefit of all communities, and the situation now where the former leaders of Sinn Fein-IRA are welcome guests in the line to condemn attacks on soldiers and police officers. The BNP approach would lead only to renewed violence and hatred.

And another one:

FOREIGN AFFAIRS - Britain’s interests first!

Britain’s foreign relations should be determined by the protection of our own national interest and not by our like or dislike of other nations’ internal politics.

Hang on, so we'll deal with murderers, torturers, fascists, bigots, communists... anyone, so long as we make a few quid for the nation? Selling guns to Mugabe, then? dealing drugs to Colombia? building prisons for the Iranians?? Foreign policy is complex, and its usually said that there's not enough morality in our overseas relations. Only the BNP could argue morality has no place in global politics. This attitude, for instance, would have led to us declaring a peace with the Nazis in 1941. Our morals have not been untarnished in world politics, nor have they consistently been applied... but were it not for our British sense of what is right, rather than what is easy, then perhaps Europe would still be under the grip of the most evil tyrants of world history. That is just one of the reasons why I say the BNP are the OPPOSITE of British... they are the enemy we have proudly fought against.

-

Yes, there are problems, and these are inevitably magnified in times of recession and hardship. But the BNP are part of the problem, not the solution. We'd get a lot further working co-operatively, both within our own communities (of whatever origin) and with our international neigbours nd trading partners, than we ever would stirring up factionalism and building barriers rather than brigdes.

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:37 pm  

Good post W71.
BNP are not the answer. If you have concerns about immigration don't call at polling station and lazily give BNP a "X" to then give them a chance to spend our tax money and go to thier next frightening step having been given backing by the electorate. If you care and are concerned that much why not put a petition together and see your local mp etc ? Seems lame maybe, but we only have ourselves to blame if MP's don't fear being voted out (ie like Leigh). But Government and MPs are accountable to the electorate.
I think as pointed out the bad apples of immigrants get highlighted a lot more than the lazy/criminal/scavenging so called Brits.
I think also as mentioned, trying to define what it is to be British is near impossible to describe apart from obeying law of of the land type of things etc.

My dad has been forced out of his home because of scum neighbours in his area, and is moving home because of it. They are so called Brits spunging off society.
Problem with a society like ours where we have safety nets for people that are hitting hard times is, people take the p1ss. But what do you do ? You have to have safety net even for the lazy buggers otherwise crime will spiral even more so, or you are hitting the genuine people.

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:14 pm  

"the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports"

keywords being "selective" not meaning all and "reduction" not meaning all....... prices wil increase yes on SOME products, but there will be less unemployed people and so in essesence, the tax payers money can be spend on other things rather than people on the dole...... havin industry located within the UK is good as well as products wont be taxes coming in from Asia, making the products cheaper........

out of 15 policies you've picked out 3 that you can critisize........ critisize the immegration policy then i might start taking your side

o/t bnp : Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:20 pm  

Mookachaka wrote:

"the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports"

keywords being "selective" not meaning all and "reduction" not meaning all....... prices wil increase yes on SOME products, but there will be less unemployed people and so in essesence, the tax payers money can be spend on other things rather than people on the dole...... havin industry located within the UK is good as well as products wont be taxes coming in from Asia, making the products cheaper........

out of 15 policies you've picked out 3 that you can critisize........ critisize the imm
egration policy then i might start taking your side

Turn on the History channel now and you,ll be able to watch what far right extremists are capable off.

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:27 pm  

Most things that most people are writing on here I will agree with. Some I don't. I'd think about voting BNP but know I wouldnt. Some policies are agreeable, some are just downright crazy. We'd be like the Soviets. My point about immigration is this. Can our country support more people coming into this country? The answer is most certainly no.

My wife is pregnant and had an appointment yeterday at the old decripit Leigh Infirmary. Her appointment was 10.15 and finally got to see a midwife, not a doctor, at 12.45. 2.5 hours later. All that with just 2 weeks of her pregnancy remaining.

I have knee problems. Ive been waiting for appointment to see a specialist at Wrightington since the beginning of Feb. I got it yesterday for the 27th April. I count it at 12.5 weeks since my last appointment. Some days i'm in agony. Ive had time off work. My original complaint started in November of last year.

The NHS is bursting at the seems. My wife waited 2.5 hours for an appointment whilst heavily pregant. Ive waited 12 weeks for an appointment. My son cut his head on our weddding night and was sat in A+E for four hours.(Now thats just damned unlucky I know). The system cannot cope with many others coming into this country and using the benefits most of them are entitled to as tax payers.

This is just the NHS. Travel anywhere and you can see that we are bursting at the seems. Been to Asda on a Sunday? Tried to travel to Manchester during the rush hour? Or anywhere for that matter? All our roads are full. Tried to get your child into school? Not easy. Tried to get a council house? There's more chance of me wearing a Wigan shirt.

We all know who these problems have started. Neglect by successive governments. Not immigrants. Our problem is that letting more in will put more of a strain on our services. Labour have failed us. Not just on this but just about everything else. Got savings? Unlucky.

These are the reasons people are now starting to listen to other parties. Tories? Lib Dems? UKIP? BNP? I know that whoever I vote for won't make a difference baecause of where I live. It will be Labour that remains. None of the other parties will even bother putting much effort into this area. They'll save it for the marginal seats. Thats politics I know. We need change. No party offers that apart from the extreme parties and they should really be left well alone. Who left?




I say vote Clarkson

: Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:06 pm  

Wembley71 wrote:

....wrote another fair assessment.....

I'd agree the BNP are not the answer, but also agree with many of their socialist policies that you haven't mentioned, instead picking up on the negative.

In current times, protectionism isnt such a bad thing IMO. Lets be honest, if both our families were desperatley hungry, would you feed yours before mine?

France have started to do it with Renault by moving production from Slovenia, and fair play to them for having the guts to rev up the EU. Trading conditions, currency strengths (or weakness), shipping costs, and the rising cost of both living and personal expectations in the Far East means that dirt cheap imports will slowly become a thing of the past.

Once eastern Europe is brought into the 21st century and thier economies are stronger, do you think they will care about the UK? Their expectations will also rise, so again, cheap labour and imprts from the these destinations will dilute.

That eventually makes 'Made in Britain' more economically viable and if it means doing it now then so be it. Is that protectionism or seizing the opportunity?

Personally I would have liked to see the VAT reduction scrapped and the billions it (supposedly) generates invested on manufacturing facilites in the UK. 'Made in Britain' for the long term. It's not such a bad thing. British jobs, British taxes, British benefits for our society whatever colour they are. It can sit alongside a global economy quite easily. Multinationals, importers, exporters, overall consumers; they dont care where it comes from so long as the price is right. Their political handwringing of 'ohh we dont buy British becuase they stopped importing cheap shoes from Taiwan' isnt going to happen is it?

But am I right in thinking now that you do accept our immigraiton policy has generated a lot of social problems for the UK? If thats the case then we're getting somewhere.

The horse has bolted now anyway so its a bit late to do anything. Though making the place more attractive to settle than anywhere else in western Europe has caused more problems than it has solved.

It is impossible to compare first generation Asians and West Indians, or even our Ukranian comminuty with the current situation. What happened after WW2 and the labour shortages (not to mention our responbilities at the tale end of the Empire years) is nothing like what has happened in the last 10 years.

Back then, (take aside racism, that will always occur), our borders could pretty much sustain a huge influx of migrants or refugees.

The levels we have had since the turn of the century have not, never were, and never will be sustainable.

Bloody hell, you can tell there's nowt on telly part from 6 Nations