Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 9:07 am  

Mark_P1973 wrote:

i think the good thing about Wigan, despite the success last year, is that we will still have some young hungry players who perhaps werent part of that (yes they were squad members, but maybe didnt play as much as they wanted). So the likes of Hill, Walters, Farrimond and O'Neill (through injury) should all be keen to show what they can do and win medals, and i think that'll keep pushing us through

as most say, i cant see another clean sweep, but we'll be there or there abouts when it matters

They have recruited really smartly and have been great with succession planning. There's no doubt they are set for a successful period.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 9:38 am  

I just hope elements of the fanbase don't get too entitled/silly and expect us to win the lot again and then bag the players and coaching staff when it doesn't happen. Only the Challenge Cup was reasonably comfortable to win last year for us and everything else needed some big moments going our way to get them done.

We look extremely strong again and the squad is that young it's still developing in many areas but nothing is a given and other sides are strengthening. They will obviously aim to win everything on offer again and I'm confident of some more success but we'll see how we go. The challenges of backing up an unbelievable 2024 and Vegas will make things tricky. If we win another challenge cup or Grand Final, that would be another superb season.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:55 am  

Stu M wrote:

Agree about the injuries. The relentless, physical way of playing for 3 years under Woolf is starting to show with some players. They are older and wear and tear is showing. If anything they are likely to pick up more injuries not less.

We need to start providing some energy with youth and it will be really interesting to see how Briers works with the likes of Robertson and Whitby. I'm hoping Stephens gets more game time as he was bending the line when he did play last season and has an offload on him. He needs more minutes and for his fitness too.

As for the number of players out of contract at the same time, it's exceptionally poor planning and a lack of vision. I can't understand how that's happened when for years we've been really smart with our retention and more often than not our better players have stayed.

That said there is a large number of that 18 who will leave the club and not many who I would want to keep. Knowles and Lees are the crown jewels in the pack and I'm hoping we keep both. I do have a feeling though that Lees will go to the NRL and I don't blame him. Knowles should be the next captain and money thrown at him. We are a different team with and without him. Now that he is finally over the groin injury he has been carrying for over a year, you can see how important he is.

Stephens looks the real deal for sure but I haven't seen someone to build your pack around as yet. His fitness is lacking at the moment and there are props who have that throughout their career. Will he get there with his fitness or is he more of a Mago impact type? Robertson is also an exceptional talent but the caveat there is too much is being expected of him from the fan base. He needs time and having seen some of the comments from your fans I can only hope he gets it. Together with Farrimond they could form an international pairing down the line if given the right development.

The new coaches will add something if the tools they have to work with are available. I'm not convinced they will have though as I've said previously. We'll see.

Lees and Knowles are interesting. I agree that Lees may take the opportunity to try his hand down under. Which leaves Knowles who could present a challenge. He's undoubtedly important to Saints but in the way Ellis has become for us. He's important but he isn't a French or a Smith if you see what I mean. On the one hand you need to keep him but on the other I suspect it will take marquee money to do so. Which means one less spot for a world class half or x factor game breaker (or preferably both as we have in French). Even though you have to go all out to retain him, particularly with all those players off contract, it could, ironically, prove to be a millstone when it comes to rebuilding the squad.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:57 am  

Stu M wrote:

They have recruited really smartly and have been great with succession planning. There's no doubt they are set for a successful period.

It does look like they've made some good decisions this last 18 months or so, with some good long term contracts handed out providing an element of stability, and succession planning

your comment to one of the other posters is quite telling too re Saints current position re contracts and recent retentions etc. i've said a few times Wigan (going back to 90's / 00s) used to get it right virtually all the time letting the likes of Hanley, Offiah, Gregory etc go at the right time, and having replacements coming through or signed and ready to take that 1st team shirt

Saints up until the last couple of years have had that knack too, and it was a frustration of some of our fans when we were seemingly keeping players on too long, but it seems that the clubs have flipped positions and we are now getting it right, whilst saints are making some strange decisions re letting players go on for a season or 2 too long

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:58 am  

Finishing top 3 years on the trot would be a superb achievement especially with everyone gunning for us

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:15 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Stephens looks the real deal for sure but I haven't seen someone to build your pack around as yet. His fitness is lacking at the moment and there are props who have that throughout their career. Will he get there with his fitness or is he more of a Mago impact type? Robertson is also an exceptional talent but the caveat there is too much is being expected of him from the fan base. He needs time and having seen some of the comments from your fans I can only hope he gets it. Together with Farrimond they could form an international pairing down the line if given the right development.

The new coaches will add something if the tools they have to work with are available. I'm not convinced they will have though as I've said previously. We'll see.

Lees and Knowles are interesting. I agree that Lees may take the opportunity to try his hand down under. Which leaves Knowles who could present a challenge. He's undoubtedly important to Saints but in the way Ellis has become for us. He's important but he isn't a French or a Smith if you see what I mean. On the one hand you need to keep him but on the other I suspect it will take marquee money to do so. Which means one less spot for a world class half or x factor game breaker (or preferably both as we have in French). Even though you have to go all out to retain him, particularly with all those players off contract, it could, ironically, prove to be a millstone when it comes to rebuilding the squad.

Again, hard to disagree with anything you have said there. I'm hoping Stephens gains some fitness as he is full time now and has been for over a year so there are no excuses in that he is still studying etc. His Mum posts on RedVee and says he has been very dilligent pre-season in relation to training, diet etc so we will see.

I think signing Sailor will mean that Robertson's game time will be limited which is the best thing for him at this stage. He can get minutes across the backline in different positions. Last season, he played way more than envisaged and naturally as a young player he made mistakes. Obviously an injury to Welsby or Sailor changes that but if both stay fit then he won't play 1 or 6 much in my opinion.

I also understand exactly what you mean about Knowles. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with his contract.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:46 am  

apollosghost wrote:

Finishing top 3 years on the trot would be a superb achievement especially with everyone gunning for us

More than anything, that would probably be the biggest achievement, simply because it's the hardest to win, especially from a POV of motivation. You gave to consistently get yourself up for going winning to Cas, Wakey, Salford, Hull etc and winning games and we're not always great at that. I'd take either of the other two over it but it probably would be the most impressive achievement in 2025 if we won the LLS.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:51 am  

Stu M wrote:

I think signing Sailor will mean that Robertson's game time will be limited which is the best thing for him at this stage. He can get minutes across the backline in different positions. Last season, he played way more than envisaged and naturally as a young player he made mistakes. Obviously an injury to Welsby or Sailor changes that but if both stay fit then he won't play 1 or 6 much in my opinion.

I also understand exactly what you mean about Knowles. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens with his contract.

The thing that struck me about Robertson was how positively he reacted when he did make mistakes. It never seemed to drive him into his shell, and I get the impression his mental attitude is great, so i have high hopes for him as a future international. But I agree, a sensible amount of game time for his development will be crucial.

Regarding Knowles, I think the difference in the team's performance when he was available and when he was out was really noticeable, so I can see why Wellens would do everything he can to keep him. Lees may be harder to keep and would be a loss, as I rate him very highly as well, but I think he is more replaceable. He's a real coaches' player. I can recall lots of fans questioning how much he really brings, but you can see that Wellens and Wane both really rate him. He's just really consistent and has a fantastic engine.

This will be a huge season for Wellens, but I still think he can make a success of things. I'm not sure what represents a minimum acceptable season for Saints this year? Do they have to win a trophy, or would making a final playing better rugby and showing progress be enough? Not sure. I don't personally see them as challenging for the absolute top this coming year, but equally, I don't see them doing a Leeds and dropping out of the play-offs altogether. As with almost everyone, a lot will depend on fitness and form of key players and new signings.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:14 pm  

tyr wrote:

The thing that struck me about Robertson was how positively he reacted when he did make mistakes. It never seemed to drive him into his shell, and I get the impression his mental attitude is great, so i have high hopes for him as a future international. But I agree, a sensible amount of game time for his development will be crucial.

Regarding Knowles, I think the difference in the team's performance when he was available and when he was out was really noticeable, so I can see why Wellens would do everything he can to keep him. Lees may be harder to keep and would be a loss, as I rate him very highly as well, but I think he is more replaceable. He's a real coaches' player. I can recall lots of fans questioning how much he really brings, but you can see that Wellens and Wane both really rate him. He's just really consistent and has a fantastic engine.

This will be a huge season for Wellens, but I still think he can make a success of things. I'm not sure what represents a minimum acceptable season for Saints this year? Do they have to win a trophy, or would making a final playing better rugby and showing progress be enough? Not sure. I don't personally see them as challenging for the absolute top this coming year, but equally, I don't see them doing a Leeds and dropping out of the play-offs altogether. As with almost everyone, a lot will depend on fitness and form of key players and new signings.

The coaching situation needs sorting. Briers has a year longer on his contract than Wellens. Is that so if Wellens starts badly next season, Briers steps in? Who knows.

The big issue though is the Recruitment for 2026. There could be a lot of players leaving in 2025 and a lot of cap space available. Hurrell, Paasi, Mbye, Sironen maybe Bell. Then there's the likes of Davies, Ritson, Bennison. That's not even the worst case scenario of Lees or Knowles leaving. Or both.

However the coach for 2026 will want input and if its not Wellens then they will need to know who it is early in 2025. If it is Wellens again then they are putting faith in him but again it may only be another 1 year deal depending how we go this season. If they offer him 2 or 3 years and we flop spectacularly then we are in dire straits.

The decision as to who the coach is for 2026 needs to be a good one.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:43 pm  

I think Saints will finish in the top 4 but there are clearly a lot of question marks going forward. A big one is the future of Paul Wellens but ultimately the stars of the squad have aged and it will take time to replace them. Roby, LMS and Makinson have all gone whilst Lomax, Walmsley, Paasi and Hurrell are approaching the end. Clark, Sironen, Percival, Batchelor and Bell all in their 30s. If Lees and/or Knowles go as well it would be a nightmare. There are some promising players coming through but likely 2-3 years away from potentially being able to lead a title winning squad.

Other concerns are the lack of a specialist kicker and how injury prone the squad has been over the last couple of years.

Tristan Sailor has to be a success for them and I actually hope that he is one - Super League needs more stars and he definitely seems to have some X factor.

On a side note it's interesting to see how all of the big stars are back training at the majority of SL clubs but it looks like ours will only be back after Christmas. Completely understandable given the number of games we played but I think it also shows a level of trust in the squad to keep themselves fit outside of the club. Giving the likes of French and Field some extra time back home has definitely been a smart strategy.