Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 11:13 am  

I work in Wigan and St Helens and 15-20 years ago everybody used to want to talk about rugby. These days whenever i try to start a conversation about the rugby the vast majority are just not interested or dont watch the game. Even when Wigan are playing saints, i get blank faces like its an alien sport that they never heard of or they just turn their nose up and say they wont be/didnt watch the game.

What happened? Has the game become boring? Very few personalities in the game anymore, no real biff or bust ups, players diving for penalties all the time, lack of genuine overseas talent coming over?

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 11:25 am  

The_Enforcer wrote:

I work in Wigan and St Helens and 15-20 years ago everybody used to want to talk about rugby. These days whenever i try to start a conversation about the rugby the vast majority are just not interested or dont watch the game. Even when Wigan are playing saints, i get blank faces like its an alien sport that they never heard of or they just turn their nose up and say they wont be/didnt watch the game.

What happened? Has the game become boring? Very few personalities in the game anymore, no real biff or bust ups, players diving for penalties all the time, lack of genuine overseas talent coming over?

I genuinely believe over sanitisation of the game had had a massive effect on the on field product and the entertainment value.

The shoulder charge going was a bad day for the sport and the 1 punch yellow card rule has also had a massive negative impact on the atmosphere during a game.

There are other issues obviously, as you have mentioned above, and I understand why the above changes were made but it is undeniable to say they have had a negative impact on the wow factor the game once had that separated it from most other sports.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 11:42 am  

jonh wrote:

I genuinely believe over sanitisation of the game had had a massive effect on the on field product and the entertainment value.

The shoulder charge going was a bad day for the sport and the 1 punch yellow card rule has also had a massive negative impact on the atmosphere during a game.

There are other issues obviously, as you have mentioned above, and I understand why the above changes were made but it is undeniable to say they have had a negative impact on the wow factor the game once had that separated it from most other sports.

I preferred the game with 2 subs and the five yard rule. Players had to be clever. It's a different game now with different priorities.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 11:50 am  

The salary cap can carry a lot of the blame.

in the early 1990s, some of the best rugby players on Earth were plying their trade in British RL. There was widespread interest, and it was always a matter of 'when' the next big thing in RU would come over rather than 'if'.

All that is long, long gone, and if you compare - for example - our current stars with the stars of the NRL, they are literally worlds apart. In fact you can watch both leagues now every weekend, and the British game feels amateurish in terms of its standards, its speed, its coaching, its coverage, its crowds, in terms of the refereeing, in the grounds where it's played. It's literally like a different sport.

About 20 years ago, the RFL made the decision to contrive a situation where no club would ever dominate the game again the way Wigan had during those 8 back-to-back Wembley wins. They succeeded ... by turning us into a poor man's game. At a time when British football fans are being entertained weekly by the best in the world, and we can see the best rugby players in the world but only if we watch them on satellite TV, it does feel as if the introverted British game - which sees its pundits getting excited by players like Regan Grace, for God's sake! - is withering on the vine.

The worst thing about it, though, is that there's no real sign of it ending. It's so unashamedly unambitious. No wonder interest is fading.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 1:57 pm  

The reason for the state the game is in is as follows ;

1 - The Salary Cap - We are shooting ourselves in the foot by having it set so low, when we are competing with the NRL and Rugby Union by having a cap so low, we have become a feeder sport. People will say we haven’t got the money, teams can’t afford it and will go bust but on the flip side you won’t get wealthy investors, or wealthy owners wanting to chuck money at a club because they’re not allowed to. It may be a cap on players wages but the knock on effect is it waters down the quality, therefore putting off investors and sponsors and it’s a vicious circle. None of the major team sports make their money from crowd attendances, it’s from sponsors and TV money and we are dealing ourselves a thick un by hamstringing ourselves from the start with the salary cap. Which leads on to the next issue:

2 - Bad Management - It may sound like paranoia but surely if a rival sport wanted to destroy our sport, then surely put someone in or put someone to ruin it from within, like a Trojan horse or fifth column. Now not for one minute am I saying this happened, I’m saying it would be an option for an unscrupulous rival sport. Anyway, totally separate, Nigel Wood did a very good job of ruining our sport in my opinion. The constant changing of the rules, the league structure and so on just complicated things and people switched off eg The Super 8s, getting rid of GB and the Ashes, changing of the challenge cup.

3 - Sanitisation of the Sport - From removing the shoulder charge to getting rid of the biff to having overzealous refs and players blatantly cheating. From having the players back 10 metres, to scrapping certain rules like stopping tapping and go at the PTB and striking at the PTB the game has been sanitised.

4 - The Switch to Summer Rugby - We lost the Boxing Day Derby for all teams, the New Years Day fixture too. So that’s two bank holidays when everybody’s off work with nothing to do because it’s too cold to have a barbecue, go on holiday or anything else. I have a theory that with our shift to Summer, it may be nicer weather to watch a game in but people have lots more options in the summer and therefore more competition from days out. In winter, on a Sunday afternoon there’s nothing to do, so having a rugby match to go to each week gives you something to do. Say, a fixture in August on a hot Sunday afternoon will be missing some fans who have chosen to go on holiday or have a barbecue instead. Football haven’t switched to Summer, they still get good attendances during the winter months. This also killed off the challenge cup and the proper tours.

5 - Competition from outside - Whether it be other sports like football, boxing or rugby union or newer ones like UFC, or even newly followed sports like Darts we have more competition. Plus nowadays computer games are realistic and can be played 24/7 against people all over the world, you have the likes of box sets and Netflix and social media to contend with.

All in all it is the salary cap which is holding us back, I watched the NRL this morning and when they showed the teams walking out there were genuine superstars like Cronk, Warea-Hargreaves, Mitchell, Cleary, Tamou, Tedesco, Maloney, Campbell Gillard etc not to mention the British contingent of Bateman, Hodgeson, Whitehead and Sutton. When we played London, both team bar Gildart and Williams looked like League 1 teams. You’ve got to speculate to accumulate and it’ll take some rich owner to splash the cash on genuine superstars to make everyone else follow suit and keep up.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 2:05 pm  

post wrote:

The reason for the state the game is in is as follows ;

1 - The Salary Cap - We are shooting ourselves in the foot by having it set so low, when we are competing with the NRL and Rugby Union by having a cap so low, we have become a feeder sport. People will say we haven’t got the money, teams can’t afford it and will go bust but on the flip side you won’t get wealthy investors, or wealthy owners wanting to chuck money at a club because they’re not allowed to. It may be a cap on players wages but the knock on effect is it waters down the quality, therefore putting off investors and sponsors and it’s a vicious circle. None of the major team sports make their money from crowd attendances, it’s from sponsors and TV money and we are dealing ourselves a thick un by hamstringing ourselves from the start with the salary cap. Which leads on to the next issue:

2 - Bad Management - It may sound like paranoia but surely if a rival sport wanted to destroy our sport, then surely put someone in or put someone to ruin it from within, like a Trojan horse or fifth column. Now not for one minute am I saying this happened, I’m saying it would be an option for an unscrupulous rival sport. Anyway, totally separate, Nigel Wood did a very good job of ruining our sport in my opinion. The constant changing of the rules, the league structure and so on just complicated things and people switched off eg The Super 8s, getting rid of GB and the Ashes, changing of the challenge cup.

3 - Sanitisation of the Sport - From removing the shoulder charge to getting rid of the biff to having overzealous refs and players blatantly cheating. From having the players back 10 metres, to scrapping certain rules like stopping tapping and go at the PTB and striking at the PTB the game has been sanitised.

4 - The Switch to Summer Rugby - We lost the Boxing Day Derby for all teams, the New Years Day fixture too. So that’s two bank holidays when everybody’s off work with nothing to do because it’s too cold to have a barbecue, go on holiday or anything else. I have a theory that with our shift to Summer, it may be nicer weather to watch a game in but people have lots more options in the summer and therefore more competition from days out. In winter, on a Sunday afternoon there’s nothing to do, so having a rugby match to go to each week gives you something to do. Say, a fixture in August on a hot Sunday afternoon will be missing some fans who have chosen to go on holiday or have a barbecue instead. Football haven’t switched to Summer, they still get good attendances during the winter months. This also killed off the challenge cup and the proper tours.

5 - Competition from outside - Whether it be other sports like football, boxing or rugby union or newer ones like UFC, or even newly followed sports like Darts we have more competition. Plus nowadays computer games are realistic and can be played 24/7 against people all over the world, you have the likes of box sets and Netflix and social media to contend with.

All in all it is the salary cap which is holding us back, I watched the NRL this morning and when they showed the teams walking out there were genuine superstars like Cronk, Warea-Hargreaves, Mitchell, Cleary, Tamou, Tedesco, Maloney, Campbell Gillard etc not to mention the British contingent of Bateman, Hodgeson, Whitehead and Sutton. When we played London, both team bar Gildart and Williams looked like League 1 teams. You’ve got to speculate to accumulate and it’ll take some rich owner to splash the cash on genuine superstars to make everyone else follow suit and keep up.

Excellent post I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 2:21 pm  

post wrote:

The reason for the state the game is in is as follows ;

1 - The Salary Cap - We are shooting ourselves in the foot by having it set so low, when we are competing with the NRL and Rugby Union by having a cap so low, we have become a feeder sport. People will say we haven’t got the money, teams can’t afford it and will go bust but on the flip side you won’t get wealthy investors, or wealthy owners wanting to chuck money at a club because they’re not allowed to. It may be a cap on players wages but the knock on effect is it waters down the quality, therefore putting off investors and sponsors and it’s a vicious circle. None of the major team sports make their money from crowd attendances, it’s from sponsors and TV money and we are dealing ourselves a thick un by hamstringing ourselves from the start with the salary cap. Which leads on to the next issue:

2 - Bad Management - It may sound like paranoia but surely if a rival sport wanted to destroy our sport, then surely put someone in or put someone to ruin it from within, like a Trojan horse or fifth column. Now not for one minute am I saying this happened, I’m saying it would be an option for an unscrupulous rival sport. Anyway, totally separate, Nigel Wood did a very good job of ruining our sport in my opinion. The constant changing of the rules, the league structure and so on just complicated things and people switched off eg The Super 8s, getting rid of GB and the Ashes, changing of the challenge cup.

3 - Sanitisation of the Sport - From removing the shoulder charge to getting rid of the biff to having overzealous refs and players blatantly cheating. From having the players back 10 metres, to scrapping certain rules like stopping tapping and go at the PTB and striking at the PTB the game has been sanitised.

4 - The Switch to Summer Rugby - We lost the Boxing Day Derby for all teams, the New Years Day fixture too. So that’s two bank holidays when everybody’s off work with nothing to do because it’s too cold to have a barbecue, go on holiday or anything else. I have a theory that with our shift to Summer, it may be nicer weather to watch a game in but people have lots more options in the summer and therefore more competition from days out. In winter, on a Sunday afternoon there’s nothing to do, so having a rugby match to go to each week gives you something to do. Say, a fixture in August on a hot Sunday afternoon will be missing some fans who have chosen to go on holiday or have a barbecue instead. Football haven’t switched to Summer, they still get good attendances during the winter months. This also killed off the challenge cup and the proper tours.

5 - Competition from outside - Whether it be other sports like football, boxing or rugby union or newer ones like UFC, or even newly followed sports like Darts we have more competition. Plus nowadays computer games are realistic and can be played 24/7 against people all over the world, you have the likes of box sets and Netflix and social media to contend with.

All in all it is the salary cap which is holding us back, I watched the NRL this morning and when they showed the teams walking out there were genuine superstars like Cronk, Warea-Hargreaves, Mitchell, Cleary, Tamou, Tedesco, Maloney, Campbell Gillard etc not to mention the British contingent of Bateman, Hodgeson, Whitehead and Sutton. When we played London, both team bar Gildart and Williams looked like League 1 teams. You’ve got to speculate to accumulate and it’ll take some rich owner to splash the cash on genuine superstars to make everyone else follow suit and keep up.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 2:44 pm  

When people say, is RL dying, they don't mean RL, they mean SL. The NRL is thriving, and why wouldn't it? They have a great product playing (mostly) exciting rugby that people want to watch. So called "sanitisation" of the sport doesn't seem to have hurt them

Our sport is a fast handling game,much better suited to summer weather and good pitches than mud-baths. Do people really believe that switching to winter and playing in freezing cold conditions will attract any but the most hardcare fans? Dream on.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 3:01 pm  

moto748 wrote:

When people say, is RL dying, they don't mean RL, they mean SL. The NRL is thriving, and why wouldn't it? They have a great product playing (mostly) exciting rugby that people want to watch. So called "sanitisation" of the sport doesn't seem to have hurt them

Our sport is a fast handling game,much better suited to summer weather and good pitches than mud-baths. Do people really believe that switching to winter and playing in freezing cold conditions will attract any but the most hardcare fans? Dream on.

The days of muddy pitches and snow along the touchlines are over. You are quite correct. But other points that were made stand.

The NRL, for example, doesn't labour under the stringent salary cap restrictions that we do, and is therefore able to thrive.

My opposition to the cap has fluctuated over the years, moving from outright opposition to tacit support and back to opposition again. But we're now in a crisis, I feel ... dying a very slow but quite evident death.

Something has to change very, very soon. We have to make the British game appealing to star names again, which in its turn may reignite some interest among fans.

Re: Is RL dead? : Sat May 04, 2019 3:02 pm  

I think the range of entertainment for people to choose from has drastically increased, the likes of NFL,UFC,t20 cricket various other American sports were not around/accessible 15/20 years ago, then add internet gaming and the selection on TV and Netflix and it’s a much more competitive environment. It also doesn’t help that the product is weak at the moment with more and more top players chasing the pennies in Oz. The only way to stop this is to increase the cap.