Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:25 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

To be fair I understand your point and believe it has merit. I'm not yet sure that there is any universe where Jai Field would be selected before Ben Barba but maybe I'll change my mind.

Same mate. I understand your point from a purely attacking point of view and I haven't argued against it. However there's much more to a player than that imo. I've been hugely Impressed with the change of culture at our place and, as said by Stu in the post above, by the change in winning mentality at yours. I don't think you can argue both sides of the argument though. A quitter and disruptive force like Barba is not conducive to that kind of change. It's a straight choice...one or the other. That's why he got the boot from Cronulla, amazing attacking threat or not.

I stand by what I say. Clean living, team oriented, family man (and great attacking threat ) French over wife beating druggie quitter (and slightly better attacking threat) Barba any day.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:29 pm  

Stu M wrote:

.
Ok thats a fair point. I just meant that he/she hasn't allowed cherry and white bias to influence his/her post.

Neither have I mate. I'd have Walmsley, Paasi, Roby (well earlier in his career at least), Lomax and many others in our side in a heartbeat. Barba never.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:48 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Same mate. I understand your point from a purely attacking point of view and I haven't argued against it. However there's much more to a player than that imo. I've been hugely Impressed with the change of culture at our place and, as said by Stu in the post above, by the change in winning mentality at yours. I don't think you can argue both sides of the argument though. A quitter and disruptive force like Barba is not conducive to that kind of change. It's a straight choice...one or the other. That's why he got the boot from Cronulla, amazing attacking threat or not.

I stand by what I say. Clean living, team oriented, family man (and great attacking threat ) French over wife beating druggie quitter (and slightly better attacking threat) Barba any day.

Thats a very different argument though. In terms of culture, setting standards, influencing younger players then of course French as a man however the argument was (as I understand it) ability wise.

Purely from a RL point of view then there is no contest, IMO anyway. We all know Barba is a horrible human being but he was a better rugby league player. If French or Field go back to the NRL and rip it up over there then I'll hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 3:59 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Thats a very different argument though. In terms of culture, setting standards, influencing younger players then of course French as a man however the argument was (as I understand it) ability wise.

Purely from a RL point of view then there is no contest, IMO anyway. We all know Barba is a horrible human being but he was a better rugby league player. If French or Field go back to the NRL and rip it up over there then I'll hold my hands up and admit I was wrong.

You mean like Barba did?

The man is toxic. The argument, even if you take it solely about ability, has to be taken in the round. You can't simply say he was a better attacker therefore he was better. He was an awful...and I mean truly awful...defender. He was a quitter who, in his final season was a total liability. He was disruptive, selfish, a criminal and many other things beside. Virtually none of which, apart from his attacking threat, made him a good player to have in your team.

You can't argue for the change in winning mentality in one post and then hold up the very antithesis of that as being a good player. You're arguing opposite sides of the same argument there. Good players contribute to a winning mentality. Bad ones help destroy it. You choose which you value the most. I know which I do.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:08 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

You mean like Barba did?

The man is toxic. The argument, even if you take it solely about ability, has to be taken in the round. You can't simply say he was a better attacker therefore he was better. He was an awful...and I mean truly awful...defender. He was a quitter who, in his final season was a total liability. He was disruptive, selfish, a criminal and many other things beside. Virtually none of which, apart from his attacking threat, made him a good player to have in your team.

You can't argue for the change in winning mentality in one post and then hold up the very antithesis of that as being a good player. You're arguing opposite sides of the same argument there. Good players contribute to a winning mentality. Bad ones help destroy it. You choose which you value the most. I know which I do.

You've made this into a moral crusade. I wouldn't want Barba back at Saints for the very reasons you mention. He let us down by quitting, he has admitted that it was a mistake to leave us, his wife was desperate for him to stay to be away from the bad influences over in Oz.

However I am not talking about him as a person. I am purely talking about his ability as a player. His dynamism in attack allowed his deficiencies in defence to be overlooked.

Okay I'll put it another way. Lets suppose hypothetically that Barba was a clean living nice guy like French. Purely as a rugby league player, Barba was better. Period. Fact. In my opinion, I'm not interested in taking his standing as a man into account.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:09 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

You mean like Barba did?

The man is toxic. The argument, even if you take it solely about ability, has to be taken in the round. You can't simply say he was a better attacker therefore he was better. He was an awful...and I mean truly awful...defender. He was a quitter who, in his final season was a total liability. He was disruptive, selfish, a criminal and many other things beside. Virtually none of which, apart from his attacking threat, made him a good player to have in your team.

You can't argue for the change in winning mentality in one post and then hold up the very antithesis of that as being a good player. You're arguing opposite sides of the same argument there. Good players contribute to a winning mentality. Bad ones help destroy it. You choose which you value the most. I know which I do.

The big shame re: Barba is that he seemed to thrive at Saints - his family loved it over here and as I understand it were keen to stay. Probably because he was away from some bad influences and in a club with a decent culture.

I think he will probably look back on a lot of things as mistakes in his life and leaving Saints is probably one of them. That said, for all his genius, he was an absolute joke in defence at times (albeit that got much worse after his head got turned and the effort dropped).

By the way - interesting views on past drug takers with questionable history re: criminal behaviour and views, including those who screw up their own team's chances with their selfish decisions. You could never have one of those in the club eh

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:30 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

The big shame re: Barba is that he seemed to thrive at Saints - his family loved it over here and as I understand it were keen to stay. Probably because he was away from some bad influences and in a club with a decent culture.

I think he will probably look back on a lot of things as mistakes in his life and leaving Saints is probably one of them. That said, for all his genius, he was an absolute joke in defence at times (albeit that got much worse after his head got turned and the effort dropped).

By the way - interesting views on past drug takers with questionable history re: criminal behaviour and views, including those who screw up their own team's chances with their selfish decisions. You could never have one of those in the club eh

Very true. You would hope that, at some stage, he would regret some of his behaviour and choices, including leaving Saints. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

You're right there too. The big difference is that Zak wants away, However he hasn't hung up his boots and started bottling out of tackles. What's more, for all his faults, I don't think he ever could. I think there's a marked difference right there. Zak has redeemed himself over the course of his tenure at Wigan and, when he leaves, he'll leave with the good wishes of the Wigan fans (watch him self combust this year now I've said that! ) You can't really compare the two beyond they've both had a chequered past. Had Barba followed the same path as Zak has here I wouldn't be saying the things I have today.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:40 pm  

Stu M wrote:

You've made this into a moral crusade. I wouldn't want Barba back at Saints for the very reasons you mention. He let us down by quitting, he has admitted that it was a mistake to leave us, his wife was desperate for him to stay to be away from the bad influences over in Oz.

However I am not talking about him as a person. I am purely talking about his ability as a player. His dynamism in attack allowed his deficiencies in defence to be overlooked.

Okay I'll put it another way. Lets suppose hypothetically that Barba was a clean living nice guy like French. Purely as a rugby league player, Barba was better. Period. Fact. In my opinion, I'm not interested in taking his standing as a man into account.

But you have to as his playing ability does not stand apart from his character when you are considering him as a player!

Let me put it this way: would you consider the final season Barba to have been good for Saints? If not (and I'm assuming not) do you think that was down to him suddenly losing all his ability or was it because of his character and him being a self centered quitter?

You can't separate the two. They don't exist in isolation. Every player is a combination of their ability and their mental strength and character. Barba had all the (attacking) ability in the world but his mental strength was, shall we say, questionable. That doesn't make for a great player! Flashy?...yes! Capable of some eye catching moments?...yes! A great player? No. A hundred times, no.

Edit: I think I can resolve this by asking who you consider to be the better player for Saints: Coote or Barba?

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:35 pm  

A good joust with reasonable debate going on.

Can anybody see this happening on RedVee?

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:39 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

But you have to as his playing ability does not stand apart from his character when you are considering him as a player!

Let me put it this way: would you consider the final season Barba to have been good for Saints? If not (and I'm assuming not) do you think that was down to him suddenly losing all his ability or was it because of his character and him being a self centered quitter?

You can't separate the two. They don't exist in isolation. Every player is a combination of their ability and their mental strength and character. Barba had all the (attacking) ability in the world but his mental strength was, shall we say, questionable. That doesn't make for a great player! Flashy?...yes! Capable of some eye catching moments?...yes! A great player? No. A hundred times, no.

Edit: I think I can resolve this by asking who you consider to be the better player for Saints: Coote or Barba?

That's an easy one. Coote hands down however to be fair I'd probably say he's in our top 3 overseas signings from the last 20 years or so. His longevity, assists, goal kicking, defence and organisational ability was top class. You can already see now with Welsby from watching at the game that positionally he has a lot to learn, Makinson regularly talks to him throughout the game guiding him where to go.