: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:09 am  

Mother Feka wrote:

:lol: You know what, i cant even be bothered. I bet IL wishes he never bought us anymore with this WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW BECAUSE WE ARE WIGAN attitude from some of our fans, its pathetic.

It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:11 am  

Cruncher wrote:

It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.

Great post.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:16 am  

Cruncher wrote:

It certainly gets exhausting, the bitterness and vitriol with which some fans speak about the club and the way it's run.

My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

For me the Wigan administration are getting only two things wrong at present - the lack of clarity regarding the coaching situation (though I concede that this may be out of their hands if someone they really want is 'stringing them along'), and our unfulfilled necessity for a crumping big front rower (and again I'm forced to concede that this may not be completely their fault, as they were clearly on the verge of signing Carl ebb until his drink-driving conviction came up).

There's another thing; IL and MH deserve more praise than they're getting for securing Sam Tomkins's future at Wigan. I think most would agree that Sam is the most exciting player on the British scene at present. I wouldn't swap him for Eastmond and certainly not Myler. He's also been the subject of strong and sustained Rugby Union interest which this time we've fought off by the combination of gentle persuasion and a much improved deal. Almost exactly the same can be said, thus far at least, for Ian Thornley, who many fans are not yet aware of - trust me, this kid is also a special talent, and he's ours for the time being. Yet neither of these dynamic starlets have had the sort of ridiculous money thrown at them that Warrington, for example, have thrown at Myler. And before anyone grumbles about "oh, here we go again - it's all about getting value for money" as if that's something to be critical of, just consider that many of the problems we've suffered since about 2005 / 2006 are directly linked to us having spent too much money on one or two individuals who weren't delivering the goods, and whose presence at Wigan meant that we couldn't even fill the rest of the squad with adequate numbers let alone adequate talent. This penny-pinching atttitude that many fans seem to think will be our downfall is more likely to be the root of our future success.

I do wish some people could see the bigger picture. I'm very critical of Noble. I think his time's up and he's had his day, but I've said before and I'll say again - we've now got a large and pretty decent squad that has proved it can compete at the highest level when it's correctly prepared. We're not far off being a top side. Yes, we perhaps need one or two new signings, but I'm not going to complain with the sort of unrestrained anger, annoyance and frustration that many fans are merely because the chairman has done due diligence on several potential new recruits and made an informed decision on the basis of this that they aren't the sort of players to take the club forward.

That to me sounds like a rational and meticulous approach, rather than stinginess, lack of interest, lack of ambition, whatever folks these days are calling it. We're going the right way at Wigan. It's slower than many of us would like, but we're not the only club doing this and it's arrogant to assume that putting us back at the top of the tree should be manageable within two short years.

Hurrah, some common sense.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:34 am  

Well said Cruncher.

Any chance of making that a sticky at the top of the board?

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:55 am  

Cruncher wrote:

snip

The only thing I am slightly dubious of is the duty of care line that in my opinion may come back to bite us on the behind.

Obviously there has to be investigation into the fitness and suitability of a player but i do think that not making a move for Tronc or O'Meley may prove to be a mistake, only time will tell though i guess.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:13 am  

jonh wrote:

The only thing I am slightly dubious of is the duty of care line that in my opinion may come back to bite us on the behind.

Obviously there has to be investigation into the fitness and suitability of a player but i do think that not making a move for Tronc or O'Meley may prove to be a mistake, only time will tell though i guess.

I agree. As I said, or at least intimated, one of the things I think we've handled badly has been our search for a new prop.

Time will tell on that.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:06 am  

Mother Feka wrote:

:lol: You know what, i cant even be bothered. I bet IL wishes he never bought us anymore with this WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW BECAUSE WE ARE WIGAN attitude from some of our fans, its pathetic.

A poster on the other forum has quoted Ian Lenagan saying to him he wants instant success at Wigan. Is this pathetic as well?

My sole issue with Ian Lenagan currently is the way he has dealt with the prop forward situation. We have needed to strengthen in this area for the last two years and we have failed to do so. We've missed Carl Webb - not all IL's fault but I do not see why we could not have had a back up plan should the inevitable happen and him not get a visa?

I am irritated when we keep missing out on players and clubs keep on strengthening. Wakefield Wildcats signing Tronc and Hull FC signing Mark O'Meley. Jason Ryles moving to Les Catalans last year and Gareth Carvell moving to Warrington. We continue to miss out on that one signing that will make a massive difference to this team. We're not far off being a very class outfit but we are constantly let down each year by the inadequate recruitment to bring in a top draw prop. Each season we are told next year, next year, next year. When do we draw a line to this and say - right that is it let's get us a top prop forward that we so desperately need!

I don't want mass amount of signings each year and I agree with some points other posters make about patience and build your side around your young players but we need to recognise that this can't be done without the class and experience of top players to help the young lads along. Leeds have it with Danny Buderus, Brent Webb, Ali Lauititi etc and Saints have them with Tony Puletua, Matt Gidley etc


So if by being disappointed in having another season without the prop forward we need and the loss of Gareth Hock and (possibly) Phil Bailey and not replacing them taking us backwards means I am being unfair to Ian Lenagan and impatient - then I apologise.

[DaveO]

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:06 am  

Cruncher wrote:

I
My contacts at Wigan tell me it's a better run operation now than they've ever known it. They can't speak highly enough of IL and Mick Hogan, and say there's no comparison with the Mo / Whelan era, when Wigan was like a ship without a rudder. The only plan in the latter stages was to buy the first big name Aussie who said yes - and they nearly all did because Mo was inclined to top whatever anyone else offered by about £20 grand regardless of squad needs, a balanced pay structure, salary cap, etc. David Vaeliki for example was absolutely stunned by what Wigan offered him - and to me he embodied the problem with that attitude; better players than him - i.e. Matty Johns and Jamie Ainscough - came over here on similar contracts and also did nothing. (We ought to remember that Barrett, the pro-Mo crowd's poster boy, was almost a one-off in terms of the effectiveness he had on the team). Conversely, there was minimal interest in the junior set-up, and many youngsters felt undervalued because they were literally playing for monkey nuts. Yet some Wigan fans still want to go back to that style of leadership because, for all their protestations to the contrary, they are totally wowed by 'big name' signings.

I agree with most of what else you say in your post but the above is IMO a bit too simplistic in how it lambastes the previous administration.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to that style of leadership but IL's style isn't perfect either IMO. Mistakes have been made IMO over the way Higham was treated and how the coaching issue has been handled. I don't think the "we don't know what is going on behind the scenes" excuse is a good enough excuse.

As to Mo signing players we certainly did sign some players on big money but they were not expected to fail. If Fielden and DV had lived up to their billings there would be no complaints.

It is very easy to point to players like these to take pot shots at the previous administration but do you honestly think they signed them because they thought they would play like they did? Hindsight is a wonderful thing because it gives you 20:20 vision.

As AJ pointed out Mo signed plenty of other overseas players who were great players.

I would go further and say when we got done on the salary cap for renegotiating the contracts to allow us to sign Fielden Mo and the club was hard done by. Doing what he did with the contracts was and is allowed in the NRL so why the RFL decided to act differently is the interesting question. IMO the reason we got done on a subjective view of this not being in the spirit of the cap was the fuss and the press stirred up by certain other clubs. Typical RFL who make it up as they go along. Had common sense prevailed it would have been a master stroke of administration of getting in a prop who went long way to help save us from relegation while sticking within the salary cap. As it is even Wigan fans will use this to have a go at him because it is convenient.

I am happy to believe for now that IL is running the club in a way he considers in its best interests but whether people want to admit it or not, so did Mo.

It is going to be interesting to see how things progress over the next few years but when IL says we won't be signing anyone we are basically going into next season with the same side that lost 11 games this. Also when he says we will only sign world class overseas players the season after signing two distinctly average overseas players , then signs none for 2010 is it any wonder there is some skepticism developing? Actions speak louder than words and at the moment we are a bit short on the action.

There may be good reasons in the short term not to sign these world class players and stick with what we have got (though he did say 2010 was the year he would be free to act just after he arrived) but this has got to be a short term thing because good though our youth system is I doubt it is capable of producing enough top class players to make Wigan a success on its own.

Dave

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:29 pm  

Mother Feka wrote:

:lol: You know what, i cant even be bothered. I bet IL wishes he never bought us anymore with this WE WANT EVERYTHING NOW BECAUSE WE ARE WIGAN attitude from some of our fans, its pathetic.

I'm right behind this post and Crunchers great one too. If I were IL and brought the club of my dreams clearly with a smart business head wanting to get the finances sorted so we build a better deeper squad, i would be distraught at some of the posts on here of late.

Whether you like IL, Noble, fielden or the late Mathers, you have to agree not one of them is not trying 100%. Some might not be clever enough, talented enough, fit enough or full of confidence but some of the irrational things written on here will do nothing apart from demote the people trying (badly or not) to lift this club back to where it was.

I for one think IL is the owner we need and I hope he stays for years and years. Noble to date has done a lot for the future of this cluband Fielden, a proud man clearly needs support and wants to be backed. he knows full well he is not performing and the crowds are not on his side, but have you ever seen him not try?

As it stands there are some posters (who I will not name but youy know who you are) who never say anything positive to the point they seem to only enjoy pointing out the failings.

Drives me nuts.

: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:41 pm  

I think IL is biding his time. His hands or going to be tied somewhat with signings he didn't make on wages he probably wouldn't have given out.

With the cap space he's had i think he's done a good job so far. Yes he's not brought in any WORLD CLASS players but what he has brought in has not been any worse than what we already had.. So in that respect we've not gone backwards.

I think it wont be until the end of next season until he'll have a lot of cap space to play around with until we'll see him really move in for some decent players. So the signings he's made have either been to improve the squad (Gleeson) or to maybe to take a risk on a new player (Phelps) if he knew he couldn't buy any top quality player for a few years, it would seem the perfect time to take a risk on certain players. Phelps seems to be turning out to be ok.