Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:28 am  

Stu M wrote:

Not sure how you work out we will start as favourites? I bet the bookies won’t have us as favourites- pardon the pun

We’ll have Welsby, Lomax, Dodd, Knowles and Batchelor out. Matautia is a chance I believe and that’s not even including Hurrell and Delaney

Also we keep being told that Wigan have the best squad in the comp. You signed about 10 props for a start. It’s on Peet for not rotating better. Farrimond was soon back to the Reserves after a couple of cameos but will now no doubt play next week.

It’s interesting how much Wigan fans argue against the one man team jibe yet they’ve lost 3 from 5 with no French and arguably only beat us because of the sheer number we had out.

We are 2 from 2 with no Welsby (I accept one was Hull)

And yes if I had to bet on a team winning the GF to save my life I’d still bet on Wigan but they’ve got to get back to form quickly and keep French fit

The reason I think that is not because of who the respective teams have out (which is similar anyway) but because Wigan are gassed and Saints aren't. Think back to your post WCC victory form. The bookies had Saints favourites for most of those games but anyone with a pair of eyes could see you were gassed. It's been remarkable that we've not had a dip before now but it had to come sooner or later. This latest run has pretty much finished the job.

French is important to us. Of course he is. It would be daft to suggest otherwise. But to say this latest run proves anything more is just more conflating. We've won plenty without him too. Did that prove he was irrelevant? The truth, as ever, lies somewhere between. We miss him when he's not there as any team would but to somehow conflate that into being a one man team is nonsense. We're better with him as any team is better with their best players playing. It's a team sport though, and no player is a team. Not French, not Welsby, not Mikey Lewis. However, they do of course make a difference.

You're right on squad rotation and I think Matty Peet needs to hold his hand up here. We've flogged Thompson, Harvard (since his return), Farrell, Nsemba (taking his age into account), Ellis, Smith, Wardle, Marshall and Miski. I could show you a text to my mate complaining of this from several weeks ago. We're reaping the effects of this now. So much so I would advocate wholesale changes for a couple of weeks even if it means losses. Put the LLS to bed, otherwise we risk having a proper crack at the big one.

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:32 am  

I'll be interested to see how Leigh go later because the energy levels yesterday just weren't there for us.

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:41 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

The reason I think that is not because of who the respective teams have out (which is similar anyway) but because Wigan are gassed and Saints aren't. Think back to your post WCC victory form. The bookies had Saints favourites for most of those games but anyone with a pair of eyes could see you were gassed. It's been remarkable that we've not had a dip before now but it had to come sooner or later. This latest run has pretty much finished the job.

French is important to us. Of course he is. It would be daft to suggest otherwise. But to say this latest run proves anything more is just more conflating. We've won plenty without him too. Did that prove he was irrelevant? The truth, as ever, lies somewhere between. We miss him when he's not there as any team would but to somehow conflate that into being a one man team is nonsense. We're better with him as any team is better with their best players playing. It's a team sport though, and no player is a team. Not French, not Welsby, not Mikey Lewis. However, they do of course make a difference.

You're right on squad rotation and I think Matty Peet needs to hold his hand up here. We've flogged Thompson, Harvard (since his return), Farrell, Nsemba (taking his age into account), Ellis, Smith, Wardle, Marshall and Miski. I could show you a text to my mate complaining of this from several weeks ago. We're reaping the effects of this now. So much so I would advocate wholesale changes for a couple of weeks even if it means losses. Put the LLS to bed, otherwise we risk having a proper crack at the big one.

Fully appreciate the games you’ve played and yes I expected a drop post WCC which to give you credit didn’t really happen. Maybe this is the dip

However in mitigation to the points you make about next week, our pack has been flogged. Due to the number of injuries we’ve had Clark, Lees and Sironen have been playing 80 mins every week more or less so there’s some fatigue to consider there too.

Delaney played busted which resulted in a reoccurrence of his knee and Stephens has played way more games than envisaged at just 19

It’s hardly like we are fresh as daisies going into next week and I’m also not sure you’re missing 6 of your first choice 17. That’s 7 if Matautia doesn’t make it and that’s not including Wingfield and Delaney who would be first replacements

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:00 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Fully appreciate the games you’ve played and yes I expected a drop post WCC which to give you credit didn’t really happen. Maybe this is the dip

However in mitigation to the points you make about next week, our pack has been flogged. Due to the number of injuries we’ve had Clark, Lees and Sironen have been playing 80 mins every week more or less so there’s some fatigue to consider there too.

Delaney played busted which resulted in a reoccurrence of his knee and Stephens has played way more games than envisaged at just 19

It’s hardly like we are fresh as daisies going into next week and I’m also not sure you’re missing 6 of your first choice 17. That’s 7 if Matautia doesn’t make it and that’s not including Wingfield and Delaney who would be first replacements

I accept that Stu and, if you'd also just played 3 games in 10 days I'd put us back as favourites. Wellens has definitely flogged players too. Both coaches need to be better at rotating players and trusting their squads.

We'd argue all day about what constitutes a first team player for Saints Stu as I don't actually think anyone knows what your first choice is! Lomax and Dodd have both been awful this year. Hurrell is an unfit liability and you have a tendency to count several back towers, who can't all play at the same time, as first choice players. Then we have the perennial Ritson/Bennison argument and whether Mbye is better at 9 (he isn't) or in the halves (he is) anyway. Also should he play there before either of Dodd or Lomax (he should).

I don't think Hurrell, Lomax and Dodd are big misses for you currently and their replacements are doing better for you. Yes, technically they're absentees, but not in the same way as a French, O'Neil or Smith is for us.

Matautia, Knowles (if banned) and Welsby are big misses. Everyone else is a Cooper for us. It would be nice to have him back and would be in and around the 17 but that's all. In fact, given what we've just been saying about prop rotation I would argue that Cooper and Isa would probably make this week's starting team if they were available and would make us better. Could you honestly say the same about Dodd, Hurrell or Lomax?

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:07 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I accept that Stu and, if you'd also just played 3 games in 10 days I'd put us back as favourites. Wellens has definitely flogged players too. Both coaches need to be better at rotating players and trusting their squads.

We'd argue all day about what constitutes a first team player for Saints Stu as I don't actually think anyone knows what your first choice is! Lomax and Dodd have both been awful this year. Hurrell is an unfit liability and you have a tendency to count several back towers, who can't all play at the same time, as first choice players. Then we have the perennial Ritson/Bennison argument and whether Mbye is better at 9 (he isn't) or in the halves (he is) anyway. Also should he play there before either of Dodd or Lomax (he should).

I don't think Hurrell, Lomax and Dodd are big misses for you currently and their replacements are doing better for you. Yes, technically they're absentees, but not in the same way as a French, O'Neil or Smith is for us.

Matautia, Knowles (if banned) and Welsby are big misses. Everyone else is a Cooper for us. It would be nice to have him back and would be in and around the 17 but that's all. In fact, given what we've just been saying about prop rotation I would argue that Cooper and Isa would probably make this week's starting team if they were available and would make us better. Could you honestly say the same about Dodd, Hurrell or Lomax?

I’m the first to say Lomax has been poor this season but as club captain he’s definitely first choice and there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t suddenly have a great game

Hurrell is poor defensively but offers a lot in attack particularly close to the line.

Also you’ve missed out Batchelor who may be banned and he definitely makes a first choice 17 irrespective of his relatively poor performances earlier in the season

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:11 pm  

NB to be fair I’d forgotten about O Neill who is a big miss and a quality player

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:15 pm  

Sironen could be in trouble for a shoulder charge on Hankinson just before Mbye tackled Cross , when Cross should really have scored . Great work from Mbye though

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:18 pm  

Brick with eyes wrote:

Sironen could be in trouble for a shoulder charge on Hankinson just before Mbye tackled Cross , when Cross should really have scored . Great work from Mbye though

I think tomorrow will be a lottery. There’s an argument to say that Bell could be in trouble too for a high shot and I’ve seen Wigan fans on Twitter saying Nsemba may be in trouble.

We’ll know a lot more after tomorrow.

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:26 pm  

Stu M wrote:

I’m the first to say Lomax has been poor this season but as club captain he’s definitely first choice and there’s nothing to say he wouldn’t suddenly have a great game

Hurrell is poor defensively but offers a lot in attack particularly close to the line.

Also you’ve missed out Batchelor who may be banned and he definitely makes a first choice 17 irrespective of his relatively poor performances earlier in the season

If Bachelor is banned I'll give you him but it's not cut and dried he will be. As I said, we'll argue all day about Lomax, Dodd and Hurrell. You can count them as misses but Dodd is already on a plane, Lomax is a shadow of what he was and Hurrell is great (in attack) when fit but he's clearly been on the burgers even before his injury. If he was playing we'd be running Wardle at him all day. Would you honestly expect a good outcome from that? I think your statement that there's no saying Lomax wouldn't suddenly have a great game sums it up better than ever I could. There's wishful thinking, then there's the reality of the situation.

You're currently better without all those players so you can technically call them misses but the reality is none of them would bring anything to your team. In fact both Hurrell and Dodd have not been picked even when available so first choice is a stretch regardless of availability.

Probably best we agree to disagree but I think our misses are on a par regardless of numbers. If Matautia or Bachelor plays then I think ours are more telling. I'm fact, if we're a one man team then French alone covers all of yours

Re: Leeds (a) : Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:29 pm  

Stu M wrote:

I think tomorrow will be a lottery. There’s an argument to say that Bell could be in trouble too for a high shot and I’ve seen Wigan fans on Twitter saying Nsemba may be in trouble.

We’ll know a lot more after tomorrow.

Then there'll be the wildcard banning that no one saw coming...