Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 8:39 am  

Jukesays wrote:

Under DW the losses of the stadium (and both the rugby and football) were hidden from the fan.
For various reasons it didn't matter to Dave Whelan in that he could use the clubs as his play thing, for tax purposes, advertisement for his own companies etc. So it kind of didn't matter that the stadium had no naming rights bringing in income (it's been open 24 years and no real Stadium naming sponsorship rights have come into it in all that time from a 3rd party).

The changes really.started with IL's purchase in 2008, and the peppercorn rent debate, the transfer of ownership from a 3rd party Co Whelco into Latics name etc. (Which was a poison chalice, even though imo it was morally questionable).

The stadium has running costs, and they are quite significant
And apart from the matchday corporate income its never really maximised its potential for various reasons inc the ones mentioned above.

There's a myriad of conversations here, but here's some pointers.

When Whelan sold to the Chinese consortium in approx 2017/18 the stadium was just under 20yrs old, it had no naming rights, had issues with bringing revenue in apart from matchday experience and larger than average outgoings due to pitch issues etc.
But also as it hadn't for the first 18/19yrs been ring fenced as its own business, separate to the clubs, which it then became in effect because previously losses/expenditure were covered by Whealn.
At this point it was discovered to ne losing around 1.5million per year as an independent business, along with it approaching a certain benchmark in the age of the stadium were checks on infrastructure were/are legally required. A large amount of money (well into the millions were/are needed to complete those checks and bring the stadium into the 2020's legally and from a future use/investment perspective).

The Chinese didn't do it, the Bahranis haven't done it, and in fact imo they've made another error in their deal with sodexo were they've sold the rights to the matchday income for a a lump sum of money. This was an early sign to me that the investments some thought were coming from the owners weren't going to happen (not sure on the deal but in exchange for Sodexo updating some stuff inside the stadium and a million pound (guesstimate but I've heard it's something like that) the money from the concourse etc doesn't now belong to WAFC).

So some 5 plus years on the stadium still needs 10/15million spending on it legally and to help it maximise income, its still losing over a million a year as an independent business and one of its largest income stream assets doesn't belong to them.

As an aside, if any of the numptys start talking about increasing rent to the 1million approx Hull FC and Huddersfield pay in comparison to our approx 650k bear this in mind
HullFC and Hudds use the stadium 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for all there other departments etc, whilst we're paying that for in effect maybe 1 day x 14/15 days a year.

There is no doubt the stadium isn't being used to its maximum capacity/efficiency/potential, but due to DW's way of running it and then subsequently the 2 latics owners since inability or unwillingness to invest in it were at a stage were a large Investments is needed to maximise its potential whilst at the same time its losing over a million a year.

I believe that IL has plan a/b/c with regards to the future, but obviously these are dependant on some factors out of our/his control.

However, as it stands IL has invested in Robin Park (and its incredulous/astonishing that some Latics Numptys perpetuate the myth that the council "give" the stadium to the rugby at the tax payers expense etc. Whilst choosing to ignore the full fetails of the deal so they can play the victim) and the benefits of living within our means and having to adapt to a financially sustainable plan/business back in 2008 has led us to a situation were we are relatively stable whilst people can draw their own conclusions about the sustainability of the football were outgoing on wages alone are 256% (something like that) more than total revenue.

The rugby have some challenges post covid, the repayment of the government loans etc post covid provide challenges, but the investment in Robin Park is bearing fruit in helping to achieve that along with Mike Dansons significinat i vestment and commitment behind the scenes. Relatively small losses for the rugby for the past 5 years or so are like to be repeated for the next 5 or so because of post covid commitments but there is a plan, there is sustainability and whilst not ideal that the 1 thing that 99% of what the regular fans see I.e. what pitch we play on, is not 100% in our control and does leave questions.
There's not a lot we can do about that, but I know who's shoes I'd rather be in, and IL's plans a/b/c etc are far more workable than the current football plans/experience.

Superb assessment.

Cheers, J

Unfortunately, about 10 years after Wigan Athletic are dead and buried (about 10 years from now, by my estimate), those myths you refer to will have fully matured.

The fact that Ian Lenagan was a much more astute club owner than anyone at Latics will be sufficient reason for him to be branded 'the man who destroyed Wigan Athletic', while Saint Dave will be venerated.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 8:54 am  

Jukesays wrote:

Under DW the losses of the stadium (and both the rugby and football) were hidden from the fan.
For various reasons it didn't matter to Dave Whelan in that he could use the clubs as his play thing, for tax purposes, advertisement for his own companies etc. So it kind of didn't matter that the stadium had no naming rights bringing in income (it's been open 24 years and no real Stadium naming sponsorship rights have come into it in all that time from a 3rd party).

The changes really.started with IL's purchase in 2008, and the peppercorn rent debate, the transfer of ownership from a 3rd party Co Whelco into Latics name etc. (Which was a poison chalice, even though imo it was morally questionable).

The stadium has running costs, and they are quite significant
And apart from the matchday corporate income its never really maximised its potential for various reasons inc the ones mentioned above.

There's a myriad of conversations here, but here's some pointers.

When Whelan sold to the Chinese consortium in approx 2017/18 the stadium was just under 20yrs old, it had no naming rights, had issues with bringing revenue in apart from matchday experience and larger than average outgoings due to pitch issues etc.
But also as it hadn't for the first 18/19yrs been ring fenced as its own business, separate to the clubs, which it then became in effect because previously losses/expenditure were covered by Whealn.
At this point it was discovered to ne losing around 1.5million per year as an independent business, along with it approaching a certain benchmark in the age of the stadium were checks on infrastructure were/are legally required. A large amount of money (well into the millions were/are needed to complete those checks and bring the stadium into the 2020's legally and from a future use/investment perspective).

The Chinese didn't do it, the Bahranis haven't done it, and in fact imo they've made another error in their deal with sodexo were they've sold the rights to the matchday income for a a lump sum of money. This was an early sign to me that the investments some thought were coming from the owners weren't going to happen (not sure on the deal but in exchange for Sodexo updating some stuff inside the stadium and a million pound (guesstimate but I've heard it's something like that) the money from the concourse etc doesn't now belong to WAFC).

So some 5 plus years on the stadium still needs 10/15million spending on it legally and to help it maximise income, its still losing over a million a year as an independent business and one of its largest income stream assets doesn't belong to them.

As an aside, if any of the numptys start talking about increasing rent to the 1million approx Hull FC and Huddersfield pay in comparison to our approx 650k bear this in mind
HullFC and Hudds use the stadium 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for all there other departments etc, whilst we're paying that for in effect maybe 1 day x 14/15 days a year.

There is no doubt the stadium isn't being used to its maximum capacity/efficiency/potential, but due to DW's way of running it and then subsequently the 2 latics owners since inability or unwillingness to invest in it were at a stage were a large Investments is needed to maximise its potential whilst at the same time its losing over a million a year.

I believe that IL has plan a/b/c with regards to the future, but obviously these are dependant on some factors out of our/his control.

However, as it stands IL has invested in Robin Park (and its incredulous/astonishing that some Latics Numptys perpetuate the myth that the council "give" the stadium to the rugby at the tax payers expense etc. Whilst choosing to ignore the full fetails of the deal so they can play the victim) and the benefits of living within our means and having to adapt to a financially sustainable plan/business back in 2008 has led us to a situation were we are relatively stable whilst people can draw their own conclusions about the sustainability of the football were outgoing on wages alone are 256% (something like that) more than total revenue.

The rugby have some challenges post covid, the repayment of the government loans etc post covid provide challenges, but the investment in Robin Park is bearing fruit in helping to achieve that along with Mike Dansons significinat i vestment and commitment behind the scenes. Relatively small losses for the rugby for the past 5 years or so are like to be repeated for the next 5 or so because of post covid commitments but there is a plan, there is sustainability and whilst not ideal that the 1 thing that 99% of what the regular fans see I.e. what pitch we play on, is not 100% in our control and does leave questions.
There's not a lot we can do about that, but I know who's shoes I'd rather be in, and IL's plans a/b/c etc are far more workable than the current football plans/experience.

Yes a great assessment.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 9:06 am  

Good assessment. Warriors have had almost a generation of being a tenant that lives within its means thanks to a local owner who is hands on and will support financially, but only to a certain level.

Some of the more extreme Latics fans have used the stadium ownership in a willy waving competition, and bizarrely they are the same ones that are now threatening to walk away if any future owner of the stadium is not the owner of WAFC. They are deluded - they want top level football at rock bottom prices and expect someone else to pick up the £10m+ annual shortfall.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 9:44 am  

Would love to know IL's Plan A, Plan B and Plan C.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 10:14 am  

Latics player just put a savage tweet out, looks like the've still only paid half a dozen players (who may be saleable), looking very grim for them

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 10:46 am  

MattyB wrote:

Would love to know IL's Plan A, Plan B and Plan C.

I think hes referred to it previously at fans forums etc.
And I dont want to drag the conversation down those roads of "He should build a new stadium, we should buy The DW, we should/or may have have move to Leigh " etc. Because they're all hypothetical without either of the following

1/all the information relating to details of the cost implications, legal permissions information (lease/covenants etc) and so we end up going down a blind alley of "We should build our own stadium" when putting it bluntly 99.9% of us haven't in reality got a clue what can or can't be done logistically

2/ full knowledge of the Latics situation which, it appears even most of the Latics Heriarchy themselves don't know.

I have been privy to a couple of conversations (and ill be honest it really is only snippets etc) but the plan a/b/c is there, there are options (some of which we wouldn't choosingly want to go down unless things took a massive turn for the worst in lots of ways) but there are contingency measures, just like any business would have.
And that's the key thing really for me, that the overall picture when taking into account lots of factors (post covid, cost of living crisis, the investment and development of Robin Park, the Latics situation) is a pretty positive one I believe.

I don't want to get into a latics slanging match as I know a few posters on here watch both etc, but 1 thing I have taken from the last 3 years or so is the almost entitled/braghard nature of football fans who want clubs to spend millions not caring where it comes from,whilst at the same time.complaining about prices etc. and the criticising and blame culture when it all goes wrong I.e. this players on too much, why don't we spend within our means, we just want a club to follow were not bothered what league that's in etc yet as soon as this situation is resolved they'll want the same things that ot them I to this mess.

I believe, and I've had arguments galore with people on this board in the past who I believe imo weren't appreciating these issues could happen if we didn't build slowly from the bottom whilst their answer was always "if IL can't pay we should just get someone who can", is that in the main rug y fans are more.patient and understanding as the costs associated with rugby are more realistic and they can appreciate/get to grips with numbers we all understand.

Footy fans remind me of Nick Leeson (one for the oldies, some younger ones may need to Google).
He speculated and spent money he didn't have and ended up losing Billions back in the day

They asked him did he feel bad when he lost 100million in 1 transaction and he said no, he felt worse when he lost the first 50k thousand
Because 50,000 was REAL, by the time he was losing hundreds of millions on single transactions chasing the losses it wasn't real anymore.
What's losing another 100million when you've already lost 900million !!!!

I was stood other day with Latics fans who when the Bahranis came in were giving me grief (for 2 reasons, 1 of whichbi won't go into) back in 2021.
We're going to kick you out the stadium
We're turning seats blue
Back in premiership in 5 years
Blah blah blah

I sat there then and told them be careful what you wish for, remember what you have just been through when you had the begging bowl out and were crying for help) yet the vocal idiot minority did nothing but slag IL off and made up poop as with Robin Park to perpetuate their Anti Rugny bias) because ot could happen again
But they have no humility, they're heads are in the clouds and no feet on the ground

And lo and behold last Wednesday I could stand there and remind them of 2 years ago
Ask them how they've ended up like this, paying 225% plus of total turnover out on just wages alone

Losing 10million in a season they got promoted!
Bearing mind they weren't hamstrung with previous contracts because of administration, they should have been able to clean slate everything and build in sensible way moving forward
They're on course to lose nearly 15million this year
And still a lot of em don't get it, they act and think like Premier league clubs in so much that they think the football gravy train will always help them out, won't end. When in reality outside of around 20 clubs in this country the rest are living on pipe dreams, someone else's money and 1 step away from oblivion

Rugby league may be in a similar position but Football is on Steroids version!
But we've always been like this, living hand to mouth
And if things go wrong the numbers are relatively understandable, relatable and we can do something about it.

When a footy club with about 8k real home fans owes 30/40million and are losing a million a month they've no chance.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 11:10 am  

I’m a fan of both but am open eyed enough to know there is a decent element of the Latics fan base who are as thick as a submarine door. The sheer notion that the club could ever afford to ‘kick out’ the rugby is pie in the sky, certainly in it’s current state (or the state it was in when the Bahraini’s took over).

The problem a lot of Latics fans have is that they’ve supported them since the time around the promotion from the Championship, to the Premier League. That is where they see the clubs ‘level’ but it really isn’t. The club for decades before that were a league 2 club, akin to clubs like Rochdale and Stockport (both of these have dropped out of the football league altogether over the past few years). That means those supporters see the club as one who should be able to compete for the premier league again and should be able to assert dominance over the rugby club.

They never wanted takeovers from parties who would run the club on the basis of self sustainability because that means being a permanent league one or league two club. Those supporters loved lauding it over fans of Bolton and Sunderland when the Bahraini’s come in, when they beat both of those clubs to signings. Those clubs both accused Latics of blowing them out of the water with unrealistic salary offers but those Latics fans I spoke off didn’t care and accused them of jealousy. The warning signings were there that these new owners were going sh*t or bust. The fans of Sunderland and Bolton are now both looking forward to the play offs, aiming to get promotion to the Premier League and the Championship respectively, while seemingly being run within their means and Latics don’t know if they’ll have a club. I really wish those type of Latics fans would find some humility from somewhere. I hoped the last administration period would be a lesson for them but sadly not.

My hope for the football club is that it gets bought out by a sensible owner/group of owners, who will strip it back and be comfortable living within its means and if that’s league one and two for a decade or more, that is absolutely fine. They would hopefully be somebody sensible enough to build really strong relationships with Lenagan and Rads and make sure the rugby club actually felt like the DW was its home.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 11:13 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’m a fan of both but am open eyed enough to know there is a decent element of the Latics fan base who are as thick as a submarine door. The sheer notion that the club could ever afford to ‘kick out’ the rugby is pie in the sky, certainly in it’s current state (or the state it was in when the Bahraini’s took over).

The problem a lot of Latics fans have is that they’ve supported them since the time around the promotion from the Championship, to the Premier League. That is where they see the clubs ‘level’ but it really isn’t. The club for decades before that were a league 2 club, akin to clubs like Rochdale and Stockport (both of these have dropped out of the football league altogether over the past few years). That means those supporters see the club as one who should be able to compete for the premier league again and should be able to assert dominance over the rugby club.

They never wanted takeovers from parties who would run the club on the basis of self sustainability because that means being a permanent league one or league two club. Those supporters loved lauding it over fans of Bolton and Sunderland when the Bahraini’s come in, when they beat both of those clubs to signings. Those clubs both accused Latics of blowing them out of the water with unrealistic salary offers but those Latics fans I spoke off didn’t care and accused them of jealousy. The warning signings were there that these new owners were going sh*t or bust. The fans of Sunderland and Bolton are now both looking forward to the play offs, aiming to get promotion to the Premier League and the Championship respectively, while seemingly being run within their means and Latics don’t know if they’ll have a club. I really wish those type of Latics fans would find some humility from somewhere. I hoped the last administration period would be a lesson for them but sadly not.

My hope for the football club is that it gets bought out by a sensible owner/group of owners, who will strip it back and be comfortable living within its means and if that’s league one and two for a decade or more, that is absolutely fine. They would hopefully be somebody sensible enough to build really strong relationships with Lenagan and Rads and make sure the rugby club actually felt like the DW was its home.

If I was savvy enough to loads pics I'd do a "Mic Drop"

Spot on

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 2:55 pm  

I think the best for both parties would be that neither club owns the stadium. The council already control the lease so would make sense for them just to take full ownership and ensure that both clubs pay equal shares into the stadium and take equal shares out (you would probably need to amend this based on usage) rather than the current situation.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Fri May 12, 2023 3:17 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

I think the best for both parties would be that neither club owns the stadium. The council already control the lease so would make sense for them just to take full ownership and ensure that both clubs pay equal shares into the stadium and take equal shares out (you would probably need to amend this based on usage) rather than the current situation.

Not sure the council would pay taxpayers money in full for a stadium that (as Jukesy states) needs millions spending on upgrading it when as an asset it's losing over £1m a year.

Lets say the council outlay £5m on ownership, then £3-4m+ (who knows) on upgrades to ensure its legal, the there's the other upgrades like tatty faded seats, then paying for pitch renewal every season and covering losses of £1m per year.

I just don't see this as a goer financially.

Just as I don't see IL/Wigan RL taking full ownership either for similar reasons. I still don't understand how/why IL put in an offer when last in administration.

I still think the Barhainis will come up with some excuse (we're sorry), funds for the next twelve months come through and all will be forgiven.