Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:30 am  

Jason65 wrote:

I dont think Wigan got away with murder,surely they would have been caught.
Micky Mc was a model professional never moaned or complained even when he got his ankle snapped.
Lets be honest St Helens have been a dirty side for a while and lately they have been caught and you lot are squealing like a stuck pig.

I'm the first to admit that we have been poor with discipline at times especially under Woolf. We also pushed the lying on/wrestling to its absolute limits on numerous occasions.

My point is that I think we have got much better in this area aside from the Lees incident on Sunday and the Matautia late hit in the SF.

That's the point I'm making.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:45 am  

Stu M wrote:

I'm the first to admit that we have been poor with discipline at times especially under Woolf. We also pushed the lying on/wrestling to its absolute limits on numerous occasions.

My point is that I think we have got much better in this area aside from the Lees incident on Sunday and the Matautia late hit in the SF.

That's the point I'm making.

I'd agree with you there you have. I still think having seen the video that the tackle from Lees could have deserved a ban because it was the type of contact they are trying to outlaw, rightly or wrongly.

And before you bring it up, I do think Matty English was a lucky boy.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:50 am  

Stu M wrote:

Yes he does. My point was under that Wigan team with Wane

So he was dirty under Wane and when he played for Wigan but not now he plays for McNamara and Catalans. Thank goodness the poor lad managed to escape those bad influences on him.

The disciplinary have really cracked down on players since the start of 2022. In that time Micky Mac has been charged 4 times, whereas Morgan Knowles has been charged 10 times (actually charged, not just looked at). I still think Micky Mac carries a tag of being a dirty player, especially if you read some Saints fans comments after you play Catalans. He's had less than half the charges handed out to Knowles and less than Matautia (8), Sironen (8) and Lees (5). Also in that time, Wigan have seen Smithies charged 3 times, Ellis 3 times, Isa twice and Powell once.

Makes you think doesn't it...

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:00 am  

Egg Chasing wrote:

I'd agree with you there you have. I still think having seen the video that the tackle from Lees could have deserved a ban because it was the type of contact they are trying to outlaw, rightly or wrongly.

And before you bring it up, I do think Matty English was a lucky boy.

Joking aside, whilst I enjoyed the drama of the appeal and then the appeal against the failed appeal I have no real issues with Lees copping a ban under the current rules. I think it was a great shot but given the guidelines I can see why he was charged.

I just think this "dirty" tag under this current Saints team under Wellens is unfair thats all.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:03 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

So he was dirty under Wane and when he played for Wigan but not now he plays for McNamara and Catalans. Thank goodness the poor lad managed to escape those bad influences on him.

The disciplinary have really cracked down on players since the start of 2022. In that time Micky Mac has been charged 4 times, whereas Morgan Knowles has been charged 10 times (actually charged, not just looked at). I still think Micky Mac carries a tag of being a dirty player, especially if you read some Saints fans comments after you play Catalans. He's had less than half the charges handed out to Knowles and less than Matautia (8), Sironen (8) and Lees (5). Also in that time, Wigan have seen Smithies charged 3 times, Ellis 3 times, Isa twice and Powell once.

Makes you think doesn't it...

So you don't think the Wigan team under Wane pushed rules to their limits?

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:19 am  

Stu M wrote:

So you don't think the Wigan team under Wane pushed rules to their limits?

Even though we got charged nowhere near as much as this current Saints team, I don't have an issue if people think we did. We took the criticism, we took our bans and we moved on. No conspiracy theories, no appealing appeals on technicalities, no coach made out they had a real desire to ensure player safety across the game, while his team commits the most offences and so on.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:26 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Even though we got charged nowhere near as much as this current Saints team, I don't have an issue if people think we did. We took the criticism, we took our bans and we moved on. No conspiracy theories, no appealing appeals on technicalities, no coach made out they had a real desire to ensure player safety across the game, while his team commits the most offences and so on.

Come on mate Wane was no shrinking violet. Many a time he's called out incidents and criticised other clubs/coaches. You only have to watch the video of his pre-match team talk against the Roosters to see what he was like.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:46 am  

Zig wrote:

But the Martin case did not quote the rules regarding frivolity, they simply offered an opinion. So the ruling you so eloquently supplied is in effect not a rule and consequently Saints appeal may have been judged as frivolous.

I don’t think that’s right lol, unless I’m getting mixed up with the other time it happened to Leeds but I only remember reading the Martin minutes. It explained why the appeal was deemed as frivolous.

They can’t just decide an appeal is frivolous based on “this was a fair ban” because A) that’s a completely subjective line that can’t be enforced in any kind of procedural manner and B) they can’t give a punishment for appealing any ban, as that would invite legal repercussions especially with fines involved

You have to have an appeals procedure in these things, and clubs/players have to be able to use them without fear of repercussions. As long as you are appealing an aspect of the charge (IE, guilt or grading) then you will never get deemed it to be a frivolous appeal. You can’t appeal just to try and get them to reduce the ban as that can’t be done if the grading and guilt are correct.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:49 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Even though we got charged nowhere near as much as this current Saints team, I don't have an issue if people think we did. We took the criticism, we took our bans and we moved on. No conspiracy theories, no appealing appeals on technicalities, no coach made out they had a real desire to ensure player safety across the game, while his team commits the most offences and so on.

To be fair, the MRP weren’t dishing out bans to anything that moved at the time either, so there was much less of this circus.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:54 am  

Stu M wrote:

Come on mate Wane was no shrinking violet. Many a time he's called out incidents and criticised other clubs/coaches. You only have to watch the video of his pre-match team talk against the Roosters to see what he was like.

I don't remember him calling out foul play against us very often, criticising the disciplinary officials or being part of a process of appealing failed appeals tbh. He clearly instilled aggression and was very open about it, as the WCC coverage highlights. In other words he owned it and that meant we just moved on and didn't go round and round in circles calling conspiracies or having a public battle with the RFL.

If I had a pound for every time a Saints fan called that Wigan team dirty, I'd be extremely rich but we now have a Saints team, who are being pulled by the disciplinary far more often but it's everyone else's fault. We go round and round the houses and the main point gets almost forgotten-Saints have 4 players who can't stop committing offences. It's that simple! Until that changes (or if Saints decide to own it and stop bleating about it), bans will keep coming and accusations of being a dirty team will keep rolling in. Wellens making himself look slightly hypocritical these past 3 weeks is an amusing side show.