[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:42 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

As much as your first point is correct it matters little in the comparison stakes because we did have Hoffman and now we don't! We did have Joel Tomkins and now we don't and we do have Gaz Hock but won't for long and no replacement of anywhere near the same quality will be available now. A few months back Willie Manu and Gareth Ellis where available but now they're not and we'll have to go with what we've got.

As for your second point it's again correct but matter even less because Joel was 23-24 with 4 or 5 seasons rugby at the back of him when he replaced Hock in 2010. Those 2 you mention are good youngsters but they're no Hock, no Hoffman and no Joel Tomkins of 2010 yet and won't be for a good few seasons.

We need quality players in the team now not in 5 years.

Thank God for someone with the correct perspective on where we are (or will be) if Hock goes as well.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:44 pm  

I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. When you have a back like Sam Tomkins and a forward like Gareth Hock you can paper over some cracks and cracks have certainly been forming for a while now but it now looks like we'll lose both within the next 12 months and if that's the case i'm not sure if we have any chance of recovery in the short term. We might be able to build a side again in 5,6,7 plus years but even at it's current poor level we'll be just plodding along.

I know all the exits i'm about to list couldn't be helped but compare the in's to the out's from the end of 2010 onwards and it's scary reading IMO-

Outs
Martin Gleeson
Amos Roberts
George Carmont
Paul Deacon
Thomas Leuluai
Brett Finch
Feka Paleaaesina
Stuart Fielden
Andy Coley
Jeff Lima
Mark Riddell
Joel Tomkins
Ryan Hoffman
Gareth Hock??

Ins
Anthony Gelling
Iain Thornley
Blake Green
Matty Smith
Gil Dudson
Hame Lauaki
Ben Flower
Scott Taylor


Obviously Lima, Finch and Hoffman have come and then gone and we may have got those cheaper then expected but the quality coming in simply isn't at the level of that going through the door. I know the quality of player simply isn't available from the NRL anymore but it doesn't make the situation any less depressing. I'm not getting at Ian Lenagan because he's been fantastic for the club and we'd be in a far worse position without him but he's fighting a losing battle at the moment. The players who've come in have potential but it's potential that would stand a far better chance of being fulfilled with quality players around them.

I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:47 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

It was in response to this


If IL did not care about the fans, then I would suggest that the poster is ignoring the on the field success IL has brought to Wigan since he came.

if he cared one iota about the fans he would be explaining why we have lost half a team this year.
and would be telling us that tomkins, charnley, and richards are going nowhere,
as someone else said the silence is deafening.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:47 pm  

nohalfbacks wrote:

Before getting too despondent I suggest that you wait until you see Hock's replacement

He would have to be a current State of Origin player who brings that intimidation factor to the table. If that was the case the finances cannot add up in Wigan's favour.

If Moi Moi is part of the deal due to the Para link again not impressed especially when Masoe a 23 year old version of him is being offered around.

In order to replace Hock you will need an aggressive quality strike running player, he would have to come from the NRL and be real quality, as such he will be asking for double Hocks current wages at least, there is no guarantee he will settle. Financially and performance wise it's a massive risk to say the least.

If you throw a name out let's hear it as it would have to be Thaiday or Williams to offer what Hock does and clearly it will be neither.

[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:47 pm  

Lippy wrote:

Would be interesting to see if any of the posters up in arms are the same posters who objected to him being offered a new contract after his ban for drugs was served.

I was easy either way. Had the club sacked him I would not have been as up in arms as some would have been and would have backed the club. As they decided otherwise and did what they did I, fair enough was my view.

I'd also be interested if any who were adamant he should have been given the second chance have now decided he's past it at 29 and its time we cashed in or just view this a good business! Hero to zero overnight?

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:51 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. When you have a back like Sam Tomkins and a forward like Gareth Hock you can paper over some cracks and cracks have certainly been forming for a while now but it now looks like we'll lose both within the next 12 months and if that's the case i'm not sure if we have any chance of recovery in the short term. We might be able to build a side again in 5,6,7 plus years but even at it's current poor level we'll be just plodding along.

I know all the exits i'm about to list couldn't be helped but compare the in's to the out's from the end of 2010 onwards and it's scary reading IMO-

Outs
Martin Gleeson
Amos Roberts
George Carmont
Paul Deacon
Thomas Leuluai
Brett Finch
Feka Paleaaesina
Stuart Fielden
Andy Coley
Jeff Lima
Mark Riddell
Joel Tomkins
Ryan Hoffman
Gareth Hock??

Ins
Anthony Gelling
Iain Thornley
Blake Green
Matty Smith
Gil Dudson
Hame Lauaki
Ben Flower
Scott Taylor


Obviously Lima, Finch and Hoffman have come and then gone and we may have got those cheaper then expected but the quality coming in simply isn't at the level of that going through the door. I know the quality of player simply isn't available from the NRL anymore but it doesn't make the situation any less depressing. I'm not getting at Ian Lenagan because he's been fantastic for the club and we'd be in a far worse position without him but he's fighting a losing battle at the moment. The players who've come in have potential but it's potential that would stand a far better chance of being fulfilled with quality players around them.

I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season.

And when all the younger players that we have brought in are good enough they will be away too. This president is up there with Faz going to union, it's more than just 1 player it's a message.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:57 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. When you have a back like Sam Tomkins and a forward like Gareth Hock you can paper over some cracks and cracks have certainly been forming for a while now but it now looks like we'll lose both within the next 12 months and if that's the case i'm not sure if we have any chance of recovery in the short term. We might be able to build a side again in 5,6,7 plus years but even at it's current poor level we'll be just plodding along.

I know all the exits i'm about to list couldn't be helped but compare the in's to the out's from the end of 2010 onwards and it's scary reading IMO-

Outs
Martin Gleeson
Amos Roberts
George Carmont
Paul Deacon
Thomas Leuluai
Brett Finch
Feka Paleaaesina
Stuart Fielden
Andy Coley
Jeff Lima
Mark Riddell
Joel Tomkins
Ryan Hoffman
Gareth Hock??

Ins
Anthony Gelling
Iain Thornley
Blake Green
Matty Smith
Gil Dudson
Hame Lauaki
Ben Flower
Scott Taylor


Obviously Lima, Finch and Hoffman have come and then gone and we may have got those cheaper then expected but the quality coming in simply isn't at the level of that going through the door. I know the quality of player simply isn't available from the NRL anymore but it doesn't make the situation any less depressing. I'm not getting at Ian Lenagan because he's been fantastic for the club and we'd be in a far worse position without him but he's fighting a losing battle at the moment. The players who've come in have potential but it's potential that would stand a far better chance of being fulfilled with quality players around them.

I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season.

Summed it up perfectly and I'd like to add two more points;

1- Don't forget to add Madge to that list. Easily the biggest loss of all of the above. With him at the helm I'd be 200% more confident in our ability to compete than what I am under the Neanderthal

2- I bet Scott Taylor is gutted. He took the less financially beneficial offer on what I'd guess was a chance to play with guys like Hock, Tomkins, Hansen, Mossop etc.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:01 pm  

jonh wrote:

And when all the younger players that we have brought in are good enough they will be away too. This president is up there with Faz going to union, it's more than just 1 player it's a message.

I probably shouldn't list the 'Ins' because it's unfair on them and makes it seem like i'm slating them when I'm really not. They have some good potential but they won't fulfill it in a struggling team with bucket loads of pressure being heaped on them from the stands.

We look like a feeder club at the moment. We're famed for having the best academy system in superleague over these past 5 years + but i'm starting to wonder what's the point? Let's do a Huddersfield and go round trying to cherry pick young players from other teams when they're between 19-22 and just stick them in the first team. We'll probably not win anything but it'll save us putting 10 years of hard work in for little reward.

[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:03 pm  

NickyKiss wrote: I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. I think whether he goes or not it has made people realise we are not able to cope with the player drain we have already had. Each time a quality player has left such as Hoffman or Joel T I have usually been on here bemoaning the loss because the last thing you want to do ever is lose quality players before you really have to. Thew usual response was along the lines of anything from won't be missed to we can cope. Well there comes a time when if you let so much quality leave and fail to replace it you hit the brick wall. Hoffman had the option to go and we could not control that but if we compound the out of contract players who are leaving by selling the like of Joel and then Hock its just unrealistic to expect the junior players to fill the gap. As Jonh reminded me the last time we did this led us down a very bad path. What is even more galling is while we are discussing this Bradford who a few weeks ago were up the financial creak without a paddle have today knocked back an approach by Leeds for one of their players. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/20140136 Contracts must be worth more in Yorkshire. Meanwhile we are discussing our team being dismantled whether Hock goes or not. I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season. Even if he did the level of cynicism developing may well suggest any five year deals are just so he can sell them for more dosh in 12 months time!

NickyKiss wrote: I think this has just tipped a few sensible posters over the edge because for the last couple of years, if they're like me they've been biting their lip in the hope that we can just keep on coping with the player drain that's happening. I think this one could be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of our hopes for the next few years. I think whether he goes or not it has made people realise we are not able to cope with the player drain we have already had. Each time a quality player has left such as Hoffman or Joel T I have usually been on here bemoaning the loss because the last thing you want to do ever is lose quality players before you really have to. Thew usual response was along the lines of anything from won't be missed to we can cope. Well there comes a time when if you let so much quality leave and fail to replace it you hit the brick wall. Hoffman had the option to go and we could not control that but if we compound the out of contract players who are leaving by selling the like of Joel and then Hock its just unrealistic to expect the junior players to fill the gap. As Jonh reminded me the last time we did this led us down a very bad path. What is even more galling is while we are discussing this Bradford who a few weeks ago were up the financial creak without a paddle have today knocked back an approach by Leeds for one of their players. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/20140136 Contracts must be worth more in Yorkshire. Meanwhile we are discussing our team being dismantled whether Hock goes or not. I'd love for him to come out tomorrow and say Hock, Tomkins, Mossop, Hansen etc have signed new 5 year deals but it's not going to happen and I expect the 4 of them to leave in this and the next off season. Even if he did the level of cynicism developing may well suggest any five year deals are just so he can sell them for more dosh in 12 months time!

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:04 pm  

DaveO wrote:

I was easy either way. Had the club sacked him I would not have been as up in arms as some would have been and would have backed the club. As they decided otherwise and did what they did I, fair enough was my view.

I'd also be interested if any who were adamant he should have been given the second chance have now decided he's past it at 29 and its time we cashed in or just view this a good business! Hero to zero overnight?

he has obviously been our best forward this year, i don't think anyone would argue that.