Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:38 pm  

Very true. I remember everyone saying how Wigan were the best in the league in 2020

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:42 pm  

Smalls wrote:

Very true. I remember everyone saying how Wigan were the best in the league in 2020

I said the CC, not the GF!

That said, you were miles better than Leeds

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:56 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the English, however I can take more rudimentary steps to explain it for you if needed.

With the results over the weekend (you losing to Leeds and us beating Wakefield), that gives us a 6 point cushion at the top of the league. With that plus the fact that we don’t have the most difficult run-in, I’m insinuating that the league leaders shield is now all but wrapped up. That makes it 1-1 on the trophy front for our respective teams this year.

Now, the logic of some in this thread dictates that winning a trophy is the only true measurement of who the better team is, regardless of any other circumstances. Thus, we apparently had a gap to close in order to call ourselves as good a team as Wigan. I’m pointing out that this gap is now closed, and thank god.

I was then pointing fun at the logic in the first place, as saying there is a gap between us, who have been champions for over 1,000 days now, and you, who beat us in one knock-out game just because you lifted the CC is fairly laughable. It was tongue-in-cheek, if you will.

Thank you. I am not sure what other measurement you can use other than winning trophies, the other options are open to interpretation. That’s why Wigan are rightfully the greatest team in the game, by a long way.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:57 am  

The Reaper wrote:

There was nothing wrong with the English, however I can take more rudimentary steps to explain it for you if needed.

With the results over the weekend (you losing to Leeds and us beating Wakefield), that gives us a 6 point cushion at the top of the league. With that plus the fact that we don’t have the most difficult run-in, I’m insinuating that the league leaders shield is now all but wrapped up. That makes it 1-1 on the trophy front for our respective teams this year.

Now, the logic of some in this thread dictates that winning a trophy is the only true measurement of who the better team is, regardless of any other circumstances. Thus, we apparently had a gap to close in order to call ourselves as good a team as Wigan. I’m pointing out that this gap is now closed, and thank god.

I was then pointing fun at the logic in the first place, as saying there is a gap between us, who have been champions for over 1,000 days now, and you, who beat us in one knock-out game just because you lifted the CC is fairly laughable. It was tongue-in-cheek, if you will.

You have won the Grand final 3 years on the trot for those 3 years you were the best team in those seasons.
Now what you are saying winning cups do not matter as you still are the best team,does this mean if Wigan win the GF you still are the best team this season.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:13 am  

Jason65 wrote:

You have won the Grand final 3 years on the trot for those 3 years you were the best team in those seasons.
Now what you are saying winning cups do not matter as you still are the best team,does this mean if Wigan win the GF you still are the best team this season.

No, of course not. But part of the point I was originally making is that not all trophies are equal. The CC is the easiest (by far) of the 3 to win, so it’s not a marker for the best team. The same way as winning the FA or Carabao cups aren’t a marker for the best team in football. Not to say they’re not great to win, I obviously would have loved for us to have won it and it’s a major trophy, but a lot of factors can go into winning the challenge cup, because it’s essentially just a small handful of games. I don’t think Leeds were the best team during any point of 2020, ditto Warrington in 2019.

The best team sometimes wins the CC, but certainly not always the case. There’s a big element of luck there that’s not really present when it comes to winning the super league (both the LLS and the GF). Although tbf, Saints won both the LLS and GF in 2014 and the majority of people wouldn’t say we were the best team that year (I’d argue we were before Walsh got injured but the argument could be made that if he was so pivotal for us then a one man team can’t really be considered the best).

This reply ended up a bit long but the point is that yes, winning trophies is obviously a good barometer for who the best team is, but it isn’t always reflective. That’s the nature of the fact that both of our major trophies come from knockout competitions, where anything can happen on the day. You’d say the league leaders shield should be the biggest barometer but even that isn’t true in the case of RL because a lot of teams don’t bother taking it seriously as it doesn’t mean anything and finishing 2nd is just as good a route to the GF, the top 8 system where Leeds won half their trophies was even worse

Though if you win the GF then you’ve won the 2 major trophies of the year so of course you can safely consider the gap closed in that case

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:31 am  

The Reaper wrote:

No, of course not. But part of the point I was originally making is that not all trophies are equal. The CC is the easiest (by far) of the 3 to win, so it’s not a marker for the best team. The same way as winning the FA or Carabao cups aren’t a marker for the best team in football. Not to say they’re not great to win, I obviously would have loved for us to have won it and it’s a major trophy, but a lot of factors can go into winning the challenge cup, because it’s essentially just a small handful of games. I don’t think Leeds were the best team during any point of 2020, ditto Warrington in 2019.

The best team sometimes wins the CC, but certainly not always the case. There’s a big element of luck there that’s not really present when it comes to winning the super league (both the LLS and the GF). Although tbf, Saints won both the LLS and GF in 2014 and the majority of people wouldn’t say we were the best team that year (I’d argue we were before Walsh got injured but the argument could be made that if he was so pivotal for us then a one man team can’t really be considered the best).

This reply ended up a bit long but the point is that yes, winning trophies is obviously a good barometer for who the best team is, but it isn’t always reflective. That’s the nature of the fact that both of our major trophies come from knockout competitions, where anything can happen on the day. You’d say the league leaders shield should be the biggest barometer but even that isn’t true in the case of RL because a lot of teams don’t bother taking it seriously as it doesn’t mean anything and finishing 2nd is just as good a route to the GF, the top 8 system where Leeds won half their trophies was even worse

Though if you win the GF then you’ve won the 2 major trophies of the year so of course you can safely consider the gap closed in that case

So now I have read this, CC/Hub cap or the GF is not the barometer for the best team so what is ? and is it only St Helens who get to chose which is.
I consider the gap is closed as we have won the only trophy on offer (and knocked you out on the way)I reiterate that who ever wins the GF is the top team that season (you havnt won that one yet).
If say Leeds win the GF they will and rightly to be considered the champions as that is the system we play in,i dont fully agree as to coming top of the league should have more Kudos than it has.
Your reply is not long winded just your opinion that is all and so it should be.

Saints : Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:50 pm  

Saints losing 26-0 half time

Re: Saints : Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:55 pm  

Re: Saints : Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:20 pm  

I just looked up the score, showing 32 nil to Salford. Must be a typo!

Re: Saints : Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:24 pm  

I was at Barton Airfield about 2.30ish and considered walking over for the game but didn’t fancy watching Saints winning comfortably.

More fool me!