Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:59 pm  

thesaint71 wrote:

I don't think there will be to much difference between the teams next year.
But we need to sort out dissiline out with bans Saints had players miss 23 games to Wigan's 12

Play a bit more like 'dirty Wigan' then

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:27 pm  

thesaint71 wrote:

I don't think there will be to much difference between the teams next year.
But we need to sort out dissiline out with bans Saints had players miss 23 games to Wigan's 12

It depends who you recruit mate. As it stands there is parity in some positions but an absolute gulf in others. You could equate Welsby with Field and Makinson (if he recovers full fitness) with one of our wingers but there's currently a gulf in the 2nd wing spot. Percy is a good centre but again he doesn't play half the season and Hurrell is a "fat turnstile" as a poster on the Wire board put it. Up against Wardle (doesn't miss many and dream team member) and Keighran you're struggling there. You'll need a signing. Lomax has been misfiring this season but if he can regain some form next year he is quality. Better than French though? Sorry I don't see it. Did against Smith is a no contest I'm afraid.

In the forwards you're a little better. You're 2nd row in particular is as good but, minus Paasi your front row simply isn't. We have so much depth there next year that we could field 2 front rows that would compete against your best. You need a signing (possibly more than 1). Thinking Knowles and Mata'utia paper over the cracks is madness. Bell is good but only at loose forward. He's not even in the conversation wider out. Even so, I don't think he has anything on Smithies, providing we don't lose him if course!

Losing Roby is massive. Massive! It's equivalent to when we lost Farrell. I'm not convinced your giving it the gravitas it deserves.

I think we're better than you next year. Only my opinion of course and dependant on future signings.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:55 pm  

Saints will be fine in the shorter term (2 years or so) but they’ll need a few smart decisions to carry on winning things longer term. There seems to be a lot of hope being placed on the next wave of academy lads but that’s never a given. I look at a kid like Noah Stephens. He bullied kids at academy level but he simply won’t be able to do that at first team level and he’ll then need to find a different way of playing. Young backs can be billed as the next big thing and then it never materialises, so the recruitment is going to need to be smart as well.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:59 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

It depends who you recruit mate. As it stands there is parity in some positions but an absolute gulf in others. You could equate Welsby with Field and Makinson (if he recovers full fitness) with one of our wingers but there's currently a gulf in the 2nd wing spot. Percy is a good centre but again he doesn't play half the season and Hurrell is a "fat turnstile" as a poster on the Wire board put it. Up against Wardle (doesn't miss many and dream team member) and Keighran you're struggling there. You'll need a signing. Lomax has been misfiring this season but if he can regain some form next year he is quality. Better than French though? Sorry I don't see it. Did against Smith is a no contest I'm afraid.

In the forwards you're a little better. You're 2nd row in particular is as good but, minus Paasi your front row simply isn't. We have so much depth there next year that we could field 2 front rows that would compete against your best. You need a signing (possibly more than 1). Thinking Knowles and Mata'utia paper over the cracks is madness. Bell is good but only at loose forward. He's not even in the conversation wider out. Even so, I don't think he has anything on Smithies, providing we don't lose him if course!

Losing Roby is massive. Massive! It's equivalent to when we lost Farrell. I'm not convinced your giving it the gravitas it deserves.

I think we're better than you next year. Only my opinion of course and dependant on future signings.

Of course we are giving Roby retiring the gravitas it deserves .
Next year just doesn't depend on rectuitment but injures too (for eathier team )

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:05 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Saints will be fine in the shorter term (2 years or so) but they’ll need a few smart decisions to carry on winning things longer term. There seems to be a lot of hope being placed on the next wave of academy lads but that’s never a given. I look at a kid like Noah Stephens. He bullied kids at academy level but he simply won’t be able to do that at first team level and he’ll then need to find a different way of playing. Young backs can be billed as the next big thing and then it never materialises, so the recruitment is going to need to be smart as well.

The trouble is that the Saints players who are coming to the end of their playing career are primarily federation trained players - Makinson, Percival, Lomax, Walmsley. All have been immense and together with Roby and LMS they have been fundamental in their success. Where do you find their replacements? Juniors are one avenue but, as you rightly stated, there are no guarantees that they will make the grade. Trying to replace them with other federation players is another option, but who is available who offers such quality? The only other way to go is signing non-federation trained players but that would involve losing quality elsewhere in the team. It is an interesting conundrum that will be fascinating to watch. Unlike some of the biased morons on Redvee, I hope they succeed as SL desperately needs a glut of competitive teams if it is to survive.

P.s. I still hope we beat them every time we play though.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:06 pm  

thesaint71 wrote:

Of course we are giving Roby retiring the gravitas it deserves .
Next year just doesn't depend on rectuitment but injures too (for eathier team )

The older you get the more injures you suffer.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:20 pm  

Zig wrote:

The trouble is that the Saints players who are coming to the end of their playing career are primarily federation trained players - Makinson, Percival, Lomax, Walmsley. All have been immense and together with Roby and LMS they have been fundamental in their success. Where do you find their replacements? Juniors are one avenue but, as you rightly stated, there are no guarantees that they will make the grade. Trying to replace them with other federation players is another option, but who is available who offers such quality? The only other way to go is signing non-federation trained players but that would involve losing quality elsewhere in the team. It is an interesting conundrum that will be fascinating to watch. Unlike some of the biased morons on Redvee, I hope they succeed as SL desperately needs a glut of competitive teams if it is to survive.

P.s. I still hope we beat them every time we play though.

That’s the issue isn’t it, when your best players are homegrown but are coming towards the end, finding replacements is so tough. I look at is when Tomkins left the first time, Williams went, Tomkins again, Leuluai and Bateman twice. We got Matty Bowen, Hardaker, Hastings, Cust, Joe Greenwood and nobody (for Bateman the second time, instead using Isa). A mixed bag really but clearly not up to the standard of those guys who went. The real issue for Saints will come if Welsby goes, as well as the likes of Lomax, Walmsley and Makinson hitting the end of the road. How do you replace that lot with better or even equal quality? You just can’t under the salary cap.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:18 pm  

thesaint71 wrote:

Of course we are giving Roby retiring the gravitas it deserves .
Next year just doesn't depend on rectuitment but injures too (for eathier team )

I don't think you are. I don't just mean losing the player himself but more the effect on the rest of the team. We only lost Farrell and, monumental player as he was for us, the loss was far more profound than simply replacing him with another player. It took us years to stabilise afterwards.

Your fans seem to be saying "we've got the best possible replacement in Clark" but Clark isn't Roby. Not even close. He may well be a decent replacement on the playing side but it goes well beyond that. It's only a couple of weeks ago after a game that Wellens, I think it was, was saying the difference between winning and losing was having Roby come on to steady the ship. The Saints fans, it seems to me, seem to be taking a similar view that we are to replacing KPP with Walters. The difference is, KPP is not the heartbeat of our club. In those instances you can talk about replacing like for like.

Anyway, it's all opinion at this stage. I guess we'll find out next year.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:13 am  

Absolutely gut wrenching that. As a Utd fan I'd even say it was up there with the Aguero goal and for all the players to score it as well. And the celebration. A real sickener.

I managed to watch 6 mins of Wigan on Saturday before I turned over. Game over at that point. To be fair they threw more shapes and structures in 6 mins than we did in 80 mins the previous night. Our attack (as it has all season) let us down when it mattered. Defensively we are still good enough to win most games and even on Friday night we were 1 min away from golden point. Poor discipline also cost us and if I'm brutally honest we didn't deserve to go through.

I saw a stat over the weekend that Welsby has had a hand in over 1/3 of all our tries all season. That for me is very telling and also why I think he should just shade the MOS but thats for another day. It just reinforces that had he been injured for any length of time we would've been nowhere near.

Saturday is a strange one for me. I am going as I'm on a freebie- executive seats and free hotel so I'm only paying for my food and ale all day. I've had a decent sized bet on Wigan to win which if it comes in pays for my day. If they don't win then I'm obviously going to be pleased anyway so its a win win.

I'll need a skinful as I genuinely think they'll win comfortably. Too much pace and strike and nothing I saw from Catalan on Friday has made me think they'll win it.

Its going to be a long off season that's for sure.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:24 am  

Stu M wrote:

Absolutely gut wrenching that. As a Utd fan I'd even say it was up there with the Aguero goal and for all the players to score it as well. And the celebration. A real sickener.

I managed to watch 6 mins of Wigan on Saturday before I turned over. Game over at that point. To be fair they threw more shapes and structures in 6 mins than we did in 80 mins the previous night. Our attack (as it has all season) let us down when it mattered. Defensively we are still good enough to win most games and even on Friday night we were 1 min away from golden point. Poor discipline also cost us and if I'm brutally honest we didn't deserve to go through.

I saw a stat over the weekend that Welsby has had a hand in over 1/3 of all our tries all season. That for me is very telling and also why I think he should just shade the MOS but thats for another day. It just reinforces that had he been injured for any length of time we would've been nowhere near.

Saturday is a strange one for me. I am going as I'm on a freebie- executive seats and free hotel so I'm only paying for my food and ale all day. I've had a decent sized bet on Wigan to win which if it comes in pays for my day. If they don't win then I'm obviously going to be pleased anyway so its a win win.

I'll need a skinful as I genuinely think they'll win comfortably. Too much pace and strike and nothing I saw from Catalan on Friday has made me think they'll win it.

Its going to be a long off season that's for sure.

Fair play Stu, i can agree with most of that.

I imagine that try had a similar feeling to the Welsby grand final try against us.