Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:21 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

It's all opinion, of course, but I'd slightly take issue with them being as good as any "if fit and on form" for the simple reason that they're barely, if ever, both fit and on form. I think it's a little disingenuous to make a comparison based on their absolute best when they are unlikely to be that. It would be just as relevant to say that, at their worst (i.e. injured and/or unfit) they're no good at all.

I know you allude to this yourself in the above but the point I'm making is they need to be graded on what you're likely to get rather than an ideal world scenario that's unlikely to happen. On that score, I think, as a pairing they're nowhere near amongst the best.

To take it to extremes in order to illustrate my point, it would be like signing Wally Lewis because, at his best, he would be the best in the world. It ain't going to happen!

Now, I accept that there's a chance that they could both come back, remain fit and both play to their absolute potential. Is it likely though?

Be a bit more likely if we stop playing Percy as though he weighs 20 stone!

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:28 pm  

The Reaper wrote:

Be a bit more likely if we stop playing Percy as though he weighs 20 stone!

That's very true! It's an interesting point though given your front row options. There isn't the yardage there that you've had in recent years so the onus will be, even more, on the backs. I saw it suggested that you start with Lees/Knowles at prop in order to protect and preserve Walmsley's effectiveness. As an oppsition fan I can only hope Wellens is of a similar mind as you'll spend the first 20 minutes of every game in your own half with the added bonus that Percival and Makinson will be flogged to death. Win/win as far as I can see.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:30 pm  

They played 23 and 21 times respectively this season. I think their apparent “hardly ever fit” reputation is being over played slightly.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:35 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

They played 23 and 21 times respectively this season. I think their apparent “hardly ever fit” reputation is being over played slightly.

How many in the league YG?

Edit: and how many were they fully fit? I know Hurrell in particular played loads whilst looking absolutely shot

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:39 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

How many in the league YG?

Edit: and how many were they fully fit? I know Hurrell in particular played loads whilst looking absolutely shot

There’s zero stat for them playing fully fit mate as you know. Players at all clubs at different times will play “busted.”

What doesn’t help is that Hurrell looks permanently knackered!

I’ve been saying until I’m blue in the face by the way that we need another centre. It’s a glaringly obvious weak spot in the squad in terms of lack depth and we need to replace Hopoate.

I’m just saying they’re not as injury prone as is made out. Sometimes if you say something enough times then people start believing it. Someone was telling me the other day for example that Daryl Clark “hardly played” this year until I pointed out he played 27 games.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:49 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

There’s zero stat for them playing fully fit mate as you know. Players at all clubs at different times will play “busted.”

What doesn’t help is that Hurrell looks permanently knackered!

I’ve been saying until I’m blue in the face by the way that we need another centre. It’s a glaringly obvious weak spot in the squad in terms of lack depth and we need to replace Hopoate.

I’m just saying they’re not as injury prone as is made out. Sometimes if you say something enough times then people start believing it. Someone was telling me the other day for example that Daryl Clark “hardly played” this year until I pointed out he played 27 games.

The reason I mention it is I think I've seen stats that said they only played around 50%ish of league matches. Sometimes bare stats don't tell the full tale. Farrell played in the 2nd test against Tonga for example...

I know what you mean about playing busted. Wardle did it very often this year. However you always got a good standard from him, busted or not. Hurrell looked to be struggling with a hip or something at one point and he was an absolute liability, particularly in defence. There's a difference between an appearance and actually playing to a standard and since we're talking about the likelihood of playing to their best (or thereabouts) then I think it's very relevant that we look at the real world likelihood rather than paper stats of actual appearances. I'm sure you'll agree that they aren't the same thing.

I agree. That's exactly the point I made in the original post. Without further signings I think you're struggling and no amount of "at their best" musings changes that. IMO, of course.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 4:55 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

The reason I mention it is I think I've seen stats that said they only played around 50%ish of league matches. Sometimes bare stats don't tell the full tale. Farrell played in the 2nd test against Tonga for example...

I know what you mean about playing busted. Wardle did it very often this year. However you always got a good standard from him, busted or not. Hurrell looked to be struggling with a hip or something at one point and he was an absolute liability, particularly in defence. There's a difference between an appearance and actually playing to a standard and since we're talking about the likelihood of playing to their best (or thereabouts) then I think it's very relevant that we look at the real world likelihood rather than paper stats of actual appearances. I'm sure you'll agree that they aren't the same thing.

I agree. That's exactly the point I made in the original post. Without further signings I think you're struggling and no amount of "at their best" musings changes that. IMO, of course.

21 and 18 in the league so comfortably more than half.

Agree on Hurrell but not Percival. Percival consistently plays well and his standards very very rarely dip.

Hurrell became very hit and miss as the year went on and was eventually dropped for the crunch games.

Our squad is crying out for another centre. Our next best after Percival and Hurrell is either Whitley (a 2nd rower) or Ben Davies who is depressingly average.

I’ve no concerns about our pack at all. An upgrade on Mbye would be nice in an ideal world but not the end of the world. But our backs have very very little depth and it’s glaringly obvious to me we are weak there. We’ve replaced Roby and LMS with Clark and Whitley and then swapped a bunch of kids for another bunch of kids. But quite clearly we’ve not replaced Hopoate yet so I’m still hoping we have something up our sleeve.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:17 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

21 and 18 in the league so comfortably more than half.

Agree on Hurrell but not Percival. Percival consistently plays well and his standards very very rarely dip.

Hurrell became very hit and miss as the year went on and was eventually dropped for the crunch games.

Our squad is crying out for another centre. Our next best after Percival and Hurrell is either Whitley (a 2nd rower) or Ben Davies who is depressingly average.

I’ve no concerns about our pack at all. An upgrade on Mbye would be nice in an ideal world but not the end of the world. But our backs have very very little depth and it’s glaringly obvious to me we are weak there. We’ve replaced Roby and LMS with Clark and Whitley and then swapped a bunch of kids for another bunch of kids. But quite clearly we’ve not replaced Hopoate yet so I’m still hoping we have something up our sleeve.

Not much more in Hurrell's case mate. I make it 60% and I would hazard that several of those were considerably below his best. Judging by his Tonga appearance he hasn't had some Eureka moment either so, even allowing some latitude for Percival (only 70% himself so still not great), I'll stand by my assessment.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:19 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Not much more in Hurrell's case mate. I make it 60% and I would hazard that several of those were considerably below his best. Judging by his Tonga appearance he hasn't had some Eureka moment either so, even allowing some latitude for Percival (still only 70% so still not great), I'll stand by my assessment.

Depends which assessment. If it’s the one that said they’re never fit then that’s wrong.

Going back to Hurrell, he looked horrific yesterday. If we get that version turning up in 2024 I’d be extremely worried. He looked physically and mentally shot at.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Sun Nov 05, 2023 5:30 pm  

The Yellow Giraffe wrote:

Depends which assessment. If it’s the one that said they’re never fit then that’s wrong.

Going back to Hurrell, he looked horrific yesterday. If we get that version turning up in 2024 I’d be extremely worried. He looked physically and mentally shot at.

Got to hope he can get his mind right in the off season and start the pre season with motivation. Might need some mental health support from Saints and perhaps a heart to heart with Wellens which is hopefully all being provided. If not then we’re in deep, deep trouble as it stands