Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 7:48 am  

BoredWiganer wrote:

I have always wondered how this viewpoint translates to people such as O'loughlin, Andy Farrell, Roby, Peacock etc.

We have many players who made a name for themselves without needing to go to the NRL to prove it. If you are a player on top of your game, you will be guarenteed an England shirt (and i would expect Smith and Welsby to hold theirs now for a long time) and eventually you will get a chanve to prove yourself against the NRL players in test series. I saw a calendar not so long ago for IRL and we are pencilled in for test series vs. Oz and NZ before the end of both players contracts if i remember correctly, along with the Tonga series just gone (mostly NRL players) and hopefully Samoa next year (again NRL players).

Welsby already seems to have made a name for himself in NRL circles as if you follow any, basically every clubs fans wanted to sign him and talk about what a good player he is. Not really sure how this came about, but goes to show.

I’m not sure it’s true most clubs fans want to sign him but he’s certainly a known entity over there. I think that has a lot to do with James Graham who has been championing him and has a prominent place in the media as well as a successful podcast.

I think it’s fantastic we have an international calendar in place and I’m confident we will turn over the Samoan team (if they come) in 2024 as I’ve also no doubt some key players will be withdrawn.

I don’t hold out much if any hope or see any signs that we will consistently challenge the Kiwis or Aussies within the next decade however.

I’ve no doubt the players you mentioned would have been a massive success had they gone to the NRL I just feel it’s likely their playing ability would have improved in most cases because they would have been tested week in week out. As we have seen the best English players can thrive in the NRL it’s the next tier down that tends to sink or swim.

The key for me is the week in week out standard of the NRL.

Obviously they have some teams that are not fantastic Wests and Bulldogs were poor last year but if I was a betting man I’d wager they would put 20-30 points on Cas and London.

One positive I do see moving forward is that in 2024 the gap between teams in SL is becoming less defined.

I think historically it’s almost been a case of mini leagues within the SL structure where you could comfortable pick your top 3 or 4 before the season started, then your mid table 6 and your bottom 2.

I do think the mid table 6 is tougher to call next year and it’s possible for teams like Leigh, Hull KR and possibly Huddersfield/Hull to transition into consistent top 4 challengers which is great for the comp and certainly assists in dragging the standards up.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:51 am  

Mitchell Pearce's comments on The Bye Round were interesting. He was praising the quality/intensity of the top teams in SL as NRL comparable (ish) but there was obviously a gap with the other teams.

I can still see him going at 26 when his contract ends but things can change in that time. If he becomes a Dad for instance he may not want to take a young child to the other side of the world away from immediate family.

What he has been steadfast in though and he alluded to it in his comments yesterday is that he sees SL as a very good comp and that we need to work to bring it towards the NRL level. Like it or not he is now probably the poster boy of the comp especially with him captaining England for those 2 games so it is a coup for the game in general.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:41 am  

jonh wrote:

It’s not devaluing the comp it’s stating a fact.

The NRL is levels above SL.

I’m personally an internationalist. I’d give just about anything to see England consistently compete with the Australian and Kiwi teams over any club accolades we could achieve.

For that to happen we need English qualified players playing at the top of their game and unfortunately the only way they will do that is by playing at the highest possible level week in week out they can and that isn’t in SL.

Obviously so go and get found out but others go and take their game to levels we hadn’t seen them produce before.

The only way realistically we get up to NRL levels is improve the participation numbers at grass roots levels and the pathways to SL. Something historically is happening between Academy and SL that sees English players not progress at the levels their Australian based peers do.

There is no quick fix sadly.

And yet the best players in the recent Tonga tests were superleague only players. Go figure...

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:47 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

And yet the best players in the recent Tonga tests were superleague only players. Go figure...

Hard to disagree with that in that Smith was deservedly man of the series and Lewis was very good too.

However to counter that we were without Young and Farnworth both of whom had a great World Cup and had both played they may well have been outstanding in all 3 games.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:22 am  

Stu M wrote:

Hard to disagree with that in that Smith was deservedly man of the series and Lewis was very good too.

However to counter that we were without Young and Farnworth both of whom had a great World Cup and had both played they may well have been outstanding in all 3 games.

Which just adds proof, if any were needed, that top players can come from either comp.

I take issue with this "go to the NRL and become a better player" narrative as there is practically no evidence to support this. I can name far more who went and regressed or stayed the same than went and "improved". I put the improved in inverted commas because even then it's subjective at best in that there's no saying they wouldn't have made similar improvements whilst playing in Superleague.

Bateman's best season was his first in the NRL when he had only played SL. He has regressed year on year since then. Tomkins best seasons have all been in Superleague. In fact I'd say he's made more improvements to his game whilst at Catalans than he ever did in the NRL. Jammer and the Burgess brothers improved whilst over there but I'm willing to bet that they'd have been the Farrell/Peacock/Sculthorpe(s) of their generation if they'd stayed anyway. Williams is the same player that went. Same strengths, same weaknesses.

It's interesting that the best players in English history, almost to a man, never played regularly in the NRL. Hanley, Edwards, Sculthorpe, Peacock, Gregory, et al didn't seem to suffer internationally for not having spent significant parts of their careers in the NRL. I'd argue that some who maybe should be on that list, such as Ryan Hall, did suffer for going.

Welsby, Smith, Lewis etc don't need to "prove" anything by going to the the NRL. Just keep developing the way they already are and continue "proving" their quality on the international stage.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:29 am  

The only thing the English players is more international games to compare.
As mentioned our greatest players didnt need to go to NRL to "improve" they are/were already great players.
I am sure the likes of Welsby/Smith would nail it down under just like they are doing now,so no improvement required just the believe they have now in themselves.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:32 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Which just adds proof, if any were needed, that top players can come from either comp.

I take issue with this "go to the NRL and become a better player" narrative as there is practically no evidence to support this. I can name far more who went and regressed or stayed the same than went and "improved". I put the improved in inverted commas because even then it's subjective at best in that there's no saying they wouldn't have made similar improvements whilst playing in Superleague.

Bateman's best season was his first in the NRL when he had only played SL. He has regressed year on year since then. Tomkins best seasons have all been in Superleague. In fact I'd say he's made more improvements to his game whilst at Catalans than he ever did in the NRL. Jammer and the Burgess brothers improved whilst over there but I'm willing to bet that they'd have been the Farrell/Peacock/Sculthorpe(s) of their generation if they'd stayed anyway. Williams is the same player that went. Same strengths, same weaknesses.

It's interesting that the best players in English history, almost to a man, never played regularly in the NRL. Hanley, Edwards, Sculthorpe, Peacock, Gregory, et al didn't seem to suffer internationally for not having spent significant parts of their careers in the NRL. I'd argue that some who maybe should be on that list, such as Ryan Hall, did suffer for going.

Welsby, Smith, Lewis etc don't need to "prove" anything by going to the the NRL. Just keep developing the way they already are and continue "proving" their quality on the international stage.

Again hard to disagree with a lot of that.

However Hodgson took his game to the next level in the NRL, so too Gareth Ellis. They are just two off the top of my head. Hastings seems to be getting better back there and obviously Young and Farnworth have done superbly well too. Whitehead went at a young age but he also made significant improvements to his game.

The big factor is the regular tests against the Aussies/Kiwis. As Welsby said on the podcast with Graham, he has yet to play a Test match against either. This is a player who has played SL for the last 4 years too.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:39 am  

Stu M wrote:

Again hard to disagree with a lot of that.

However Hodgson took his game to the next level in the NRL, so too Gareth Ellis. They are just two off the top of my head. Hastings seems to be getting better back there and obviously Young and Farnworth have done superbly well too. Whitehead went at a young age but he also made significant improvements to his game.

The big factor is the regular tests against the Aussies/Kiwis. As Welsby said on the podcast with Graham, he has yet to play a Test match against either. This is a player who has played SL for the last 4 years too.

Hodgeson's game was uniquely suited to the NRL. I'd argue that he was never able to replicate that form at international level. It certainly didn't make him into a better hooker than Roby who only played in the Superleague.

Ellis falls into the Farrell/Sculthorpe/Peacock bracket in that he'd have made similar improvements whichever comp he'd have played in.

Whitehead, essentially like Farnsworth and Young, has played most of their careers in that comp. It's impossible to know if that's made them better players or not as there is nothing substantial to compare it to.

I agree we need to play more against the Aussies and Kiwis but that doesn't really feed into whether the NRL makes players better or not.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:40 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Which just adds proof, if any were needed, that top players can come from either comp.

I take issue with this "go to the NRL and become a better player" narrative as there is practically no evidence to support this. I can name far more who went and regressed or stayed the same than went and "improved". I put the improved in inverted commas because even then it's subjective at best in that there's no saying they wouldn't have made similar improvements whilst playing in Superleague.

Bateman's best season was his first in the NRL when he had only played SL. He has regressed year on year since then. Tomkins best seasons have all been in Superleague. In fact I'd say he's made more improvements to his game whilst at Catalans than he ever did in the NRL. Jammer and the Burgess brothers improved whilst over there but I'm willing to bet that they'd have been the Farrell/Peacock/Sculthorpe(s) of their generation if they'd stayed anyway. Williams is the same player that went. Same strengths, same weaknesses.

It's interesting that the best players in English history, almost to a man, never played regularly in the NRL. Hanley, Edwards, Sculthorpe, Peacock, Gregory, et al didn't seem to suffer internationally for not having spent significant parts of their careers in the NRL. I'd argue that some who maybe should be on that list, such as Ryan Hall, did suffer for going.

Welsby, Smith, Lewis etc don't need to "prove" anything by going to the the NRL. Just keep developing the way they already are and continue "proving" their quality on the international stage.

I agree with the first line top players can some from any comps but to get the best out of them and see how good they can be.

There is little merit to playing 2 intense matches then having 3 weeks off.

As I said earlier the best English players would make it on either comp it’s the good players who can go either way.

Players like Hodgson for example totally kicked on but the likes of Gildart, Sarg, Mathers and many more struggled. Styles make fights as they say and the lack of athleticism in the English backs combined with size is where they struggle and get badly exposed.

Farnworth and Young have showed you need that combination of size and athleticism to make it, unfortunately we rarely get it in our system because to be honest they don’t need it to get to SL level.

Tomkins was pretty much injured for his entire time in the NRL and still made a decent good it but that knee ultimately nearly ended his career and he had to adapt his game.

Ellis, Graham, Burgess x 4, Hodgson, Morley, Whitehead, Williams, Cooper all went and improved in my opinion but for every one of those you get a Greenwood.

I’d love personally to see a couple of halves go over to really see what impact they have and see how their game developed.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:45 am  

jonh wrote:

I agree with the first line top players can some from any comps but to get the best out of them and see how good they can be.

There is little merit to playing 2 intense matches then having 3 weeks off.

As I said earlier the best English players would make it on either comp it’s the good players who can go either way.

Players like Hodgson for example totally kicked on but the likes of Gildart, Sarg, Mathers and many more struggled. Styles make fights as they say and the lack of athleticism in the English backs combined with size is where they struggle and get badly exposed.

Farnworth and Young have showed you need that combination of size and athleticism to make it, unfortunately we rarely get it in our system because to be honest they don’t need it to get to SL level.

Tomkins was pretty much injured for his entire time in the NRL and still made a decent good it but that knee ultimately nearly ended his career and he had to adapt his game.

Ellis, Graham, Burgess x 4, Hodgson, Morley, Whitehead, Williams, Cooper all went and improved in my opinion but for every one of those you get a Greenwood.

I’d love personally to see a couple of halves go over to really see what impact they have and see how their game developed.

All the listed, bar Hodgeson, were already good players and would in all probability made similar improvements had they played their careers over here instead. Hodgeson didn't improve us internationally as is being argued as a reason to send them over there.