Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:56 am  

Also if the players that are in the NRL so good how come we have players come over here and not destroy the English players,we have had some players not upto our standard from the NRL.

What we do need is more Internationals as stated more than once.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:03 am  

I could go further and claim that the Superleague is better at improving players as evidenced by the likes of Field and French. French, in particular, is twice the player than the bit part NRL player that first came over. His game across every single aspect of the game has improved exponentially.

Or could it be that, like Hodgeson, their games are uniquely suited to this comp allowing their talents to flourish in the environment best suited to them?

I would also suggest that Smith, perhaps more even than Welsby, would flourish over there as his kicking and organising game is massively suited to the NRL structured approach. Would that make him a "better" player though or just one who's already existing talent is allowed to shine? I would argue the 2nd (as I'm sure John would argue the 1st)

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:25 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

All the listed, bar Hodgeson, were already good players and would in all probability made similar improvements had they played their careers over here instead. Hodgeson didn't improve us internationally as is being argued as a reason to send them over there.

Yes they were good players but I can only deal in what actually happened when they went to the NRL not speculation.

They could also have dropped off if they had stayed in SL. Unlikely I appreciate but again it’s speculation.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:29 am  

Jason65 wrote:

Also if the players that are in the NRL so good how come we have players come over here and not destroy the English players,we have had some players not upto our standard from the NRL.

What we do need is more Internationals as stated more than once.

Generally the better Aussies do go very well in SL. Croft couldn’t get a gig in Australia, Man of Steel, Hastings wasn’t established Man of Steel same with French, same with Field although no MOS same with Miski, the Melbourne when they joined us dominated SL sane with Barrett even the average NRL players who come over generally have good careers.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:46 am  

jonh wrote:

Yes they were good players but I can only deal in what actually happened when they went to the NRL not speculation.

They could also have dropped off if they had stayed in SL. Unlikely I appreciate but again it’s speculation.

As you say John, unlikely.

You say you can only deal in what actually happened, which is fair enough. But is what actually happened that they became better players than they would have in Superleague? That is not what actually happened as there is simply no point of comparison.

What actually happened is they became better players. The reason is pure speculation.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:46 am  

Sour grapes? https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/australi ... ove-86576/

Sour grapes? https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/australi ... ove-86576/

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:13 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I could go further and claim that the Superleague is better at improving players as evidenced by the likes of Field and French. French, in particular, is twice the player than the bit part NRL player that first came over. His game across every single aspect of the game has improved exponentially.

Or could it be that, like Hodgeson, their games are uniquely suited to this comp allowing their talents to flourish in the environment best suited to them?

I would also suggest that Smith, perhaps more even than Welsby, would flourish over there as his kicking and organising game is massively suited to the NRL structured approach. Would that make him a "better" player though or just one who's already existing talent is allowed to shine? I would argue the 2nd (as I'm sure John would argue the 1st)

I agree with Smith being more suited to the NRL he also plays in a position they are crying out for, I’m not sure Welsby is. The 5/8th position is a pretty well stocked one, half isn’t.

I’m not sure Welsby has the athleticism for the NRL it’s the biggest question mark I have over any potential move.

Halves tend to not need that athleticism as much although if you have both aspects like Cleary you become very special.

The only thing that kept Field and French from being successful in the NRL was their athleticism. I’d say French maybe has developed that now in the 6 position but I don’t think he has it as an outside back (in either comp). Field I don’t think has that physicality and I’m not sure he will ever get it.

Plsying more internationals I totally agree would help, but I struggle to see when that is possible other than the 3 game window we now have at the end of the year, plus the appetite has to be there. Tonga didn’t send a full strength side and Samoa may not be coming due to the lack of finances on offer.

Again it’s a chicken and egg.

We need a strong England side to generate interest in the Internstional game, make it credible and generate revenue. Test matches tend to be all about respecting position, controlling field position and taking advantage of the opportunities when they come, a style much more NRL like.

The quickest way to get a competitive England side is in my opinion get the better players playing at the top level week in week out, for me that means NRL.

Longer term the ambition is obviously keep our players in SL but I feel shirt/medium term pain is the best way to see SL flourish longer term.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:36 pm  

jonh wrote:

I agree with Smith being more suited to the NRL he also plays in a position they are crying out for, I’m not sure Welsby is. The 5/8th position is a pretty well stocked one, half isn’t.

I’m not sure Welsby has the athleticism for the NRL it’s the biggest question mark I have over any potential move.

Halves tend to not need that athleticism as much although if you have both aspects like Cleary you become very special.

The only thing that kept Field and French from being successful in the NRL was their athleticism. I’d say French maybe has developed that now in the 6 position but I don’t think he has it as an outside back (in either comp). Field I don’t think has that physicality and I’m not sure he will ever get it.

Plsying more internationals I totally agree would help, but I struggle to see when that is possible other than the 3 game window we now have at the end of the year, plus the appetite has to be there. Tonga didn’t send a full strength side and Samoa may not be coming due to the lack of finances on offer.

Again it’s a chicken and egg.

We need a strong England side to generate interest in the Internstional game, make it credible and generate revenue. Test matches tend to be all about respecting position, controlling field position and taking advantage of the opportunities when they come, a style much more NRL like.

The quickest way to get a competitive England side is in my opinion get the better players playing at the top level week in week out, for me that means NRL.

Longer term the ambition is obviously keep our players in SL but I feel shirt/medium term pain is the best way to see SL flourish longer term.

I'm intrigued as to why you think that. On this very forum when I've argued about Welsby compared to French/Field, the retort from a few Wigan fans has been that the reason that the NRL clubs aren't in for French/Field is the fact that they aren't athletic enough for the NRL whereas Welsby is?

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:51 pm  

Stu M wrote:

I'm intrigued as to why you think that. On this very forum when I've argued about Welsby compared to French/Field, the retort from a few Wigan fans has been that the reason that the NRL clubs aren't in for French/Field is the fact that they aren't athletic enough for the NRL whereas Welsby is?

I personally think Field and French are far more athletic than Welsby I think the NRL are not knocking on the door for them to return due to their physicality.

I certainly think Welsby has that physicality, I do think he is a good athlete too but it’s all about levels and that for me is where I feel he may be tested most assuming he went over as a 5/8th or a fullback. That athleticism is where most of our backs have struggled. The NRL backs are bigger, faster and stronger our lads that go over generally can’t transition quickly enough to catch up.

Players like Farnworth and Young are amazing athletes but they had time to transition in the junior pathways over there and benefit from that.

Welsby if he ever goes isn’t going to be allowed that privilege.

I’m not saying he won’t make it athletically should he ever go, I just think that will be the area under most pressure and probably be the defining factor in if he was successful or not.

I don’t think he has the style to go over as a 7.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:02 pm  

jonh wrote:

I agree with Smith being more suited to the NRL he also plays in a position they are crying out for, I’m not sure Welsby is. The 5/8th position is a pretty well stocked one, half isn’t.

I’m not sure Welsby has the athleticism for the NRL it’s the biggest question mark I have over any potential move.

Halves tend to not need that athleticism as much although if you have both aspects like Cleary you become very special.

The only thing that kept Field and French from being successful in the NRL was their athleticism. I’d say French maybe has developed that now in the 6 position but I don’t think he has it as an outside back (in either comp). Field I don’t think has that physicality and I’m not sure he will ever get it.

Plsying more internationals I totally agree would help, but I struggle to see when that is possible other than the 3 game window we now have at the end of the year, plus the appetite has to be there. Tonga didn’t send a full strength side and Samoa may not be coming due to the lack of finances on offer.

Again it’s a chicken and egg.

We need a strong England side to generate interest in the Internstional game, make it credible and generate revenue. Test matches tend to be all about respecting position, controlling field position and taking advantage of the opportunities when they come, a style much more NRL like.

The quickest way to get a competitive England side is in my opinion get the better players playing at the top level week in week out, for me that means NRL.

Longer term the ambition is obviously keep our players in SL but I feel shirt/medium term pain is the best way to see SL flourish longer term.

I couldn't disagree more with that last statement. There is literally no long term advantage to short termism. The only benefit to short termism is in the short term. The clue is in the term itself.

The answer to long term growth is the exact opposite of what you propose. Our game has been decimated by successive short term approaches and fixes. The only answer to long term growth is to invest in the long term.

The future of our game lies in attracting more young people, both to play and watch, and that takes stars of the game. No kid is going to come to the game because Josh Hodgeson is doing well in Australia!

Let me show you what I mean with a real world example. Our little girl has just turned 10. Last season was her first supporting Wigan and she's taken a shine to Harry Smith. Because of this she joined Leigh Miners under 11s and is loving it. In simple terms no Harry Smith, no new recruit to the amateur game. In addition her Mum took her to watch the Tonga game at the TWS for the same reason. Internationally, no Harry Smith, 2 lost ticket sales and money lost to the game. This same scenario is repeated time and again.

And if your still unconvinced as to the necessity to keep players in this country let me finish with this: on Tuesday we went to the Night under the lights event. While we were queueing we were looking at the players on the wall (the one showing their different heights). When I mentioned John Bateman she replied "who's John Bateman?" Meanwhile she couldn't wait to get her picture taken with Harry, Marshy etc. I think that says it all.