Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:32 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I couldn't disagree more with that last statement. There is literally no long term advantage to short termism. The only benefit to short termism is in the short term. The clue is in the term itself.

The answer to long term growth is the exact opposite of what you propose. Our game has been decimated by successive short term approaches and fixes. The only answer to long term growth is to invest in the long term.

The future of our game lies in attracting more young people, both to play and watch, and that takes stars of the game. No kid is going to come to the game because Josh Hodgeson is doing well in Australia!

Let me show you what I mean with a real world example. Our little girl has just turned 10. Last season was her first supporting Wigan and she's taken a shine to Harry Smith. Because of this she joined Leigh Miners under 11s and is loving it. In simple terms no Harry Smith, no new recruit to the amateur game. In addition her Mum took her to watch the Tonga game at the TWS for the same reason. Internationally, no Harry Smith, 2 lost ticket sales and money lost to the game. This same scenario is repeated time and again.

And if your still unconvinced as to the necessity to keep players in this country let me finish with this: on Tuesday we went to the Night under the lights event. While we were queueing we were looking at the players on the wall (the one showing their different heights). When I mentioned John Bateman she replied "who's John Bateman?" Meanwhile she couldn't wait to get her picture taken with Harry, Marshy etc. I think that says it all.

With all due respect most kids are drawn to the game because of their parents.

I’ve been a community coach for over 20 years and I’d say 80% because their parents have an interest in the game or association with a club, I’d say probably 15% come because they have mates that play and the remaining 5% are ones who come off their own back with no prior connections.

I totally agree about players and playing numbers. Rightly or wrongly too when players go to the NRL you start to see more of that clubs shirts at training worn by more lads (never coached in the field game although I am an admirer as it’s as brutal if not more so than some lads games).

There is always initial disappointment when a player goes but then a buzz once it’s accepted and one of their games is shown on Sky etc.

I may be wrong but I’m guess your daughter was drawn to Smith because you or someone close to her is a fan of him and talks about him positively too.

If he isn’t there someone else gets that attention.

The key to getting participation numbers up is getting it back in the schools. We haven’t had a player that transcends the sport since maybe Offiah, that’s one of the reasons I hoped the Farrell rumours were true as he was hand made already to transition as a personality.

I can’t remember a time when established community clubs have ever struggled to get junior teams out across all age groups from 6-18. Most clubs have at least 1 or 2 age groups missing.

Football is the biggest threat to participation numbers and Union is a growing risk too, however that works both ways.

As we see with most sports the media get interested in successful teams and their profile grows. Womens football is riding on the crest of a wave because of the success of the rep teams. A lot of the women who laid these foundations were developed in the American College system off the back of those players an Academy system was developed in England (actually headed up by an ex RL pathways manager Tony Fretwell) and now we have a league that can generally retain its players lots of media attention and revenue RL can only dream of.

We have to create a buzz around the international game we only do that by being successful on that stage and short term the only way to do that is get more players playing at a better level week in week out.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 4:54 pm  

jonh wrote:

Generally the better Aussies do go very well in SL. Croft couldn’t get a gig in Australia, Man of Steel, Hastings wasn’t established Man of Steel same with French, same with Field although no MOS same with Miski, the Melbourne when they joined us dominated SL sane with Barrett even the average NRL players who come over generally have good careers.

Pierce/Maloney didnt set SL on fire,neither did Tyrone May and I pretty sure they did win something in the NRL and were class players in the NRL but not as good as our boys in the SL.

Miski,French,Field all improved because of the Wigan coaching as did Smith/Byrne etc etc.

The better NRL players adapt to SL and become better players as a result.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 5:19 pm  

Jason65 wrote:

Pierce/Maloney didnt set SL on fire,neither did Tyrone May and I pretty sure they did win something in the NRL and were class players in the NRL but not as good as our boys in the SL.

Miski,French,Field all improved because of the Wigan coaching as did Smith/Byrne etc etc.

The better NRL players adapt to SL and become better players as a result.

Pierce and Maloney were way past their prime when they came over.

Maloney was 34, Pierce 33.

Catalans have moved from a mid table team to a top team under their watch. They were outstanding playmakers.

May has been excellent for Catalans and gone to Hull KR on a massive contract despite NRL interest.

It will be very interesting to see how Catalans go next year without them given they moved from, 7th to 2nd under their watch.

The competition for places in the NRL particularly in the positions Field, French and Miski play is ridiculous.

Look at the wing and fullback options over there.

Reece Watch and Pongia can’t get the Aussie shirt it’s ridiculous, then they gave Trebijevic, Mitchell too all behind Tedesco and Edwards.

Miski has great physicality he’s great for Wigan and the way we play but I doubt he’d be anywhere mid table for pace with current NRL wingers and they have his physicality too.

I do think we have a gem in Miski to be honest as he’s perfect for the way we play but he won’t be on any NRL radars so will hopefully be with us for a long time to come. I do agree he has improved in the Wigan system particularly under the high ball.

I’m commented on French and Field earlier in the thread. Wonderful players and we are very lucky to have them as they are so entertaining to watch but I don’t think they would ever nail regular starting spots in NRL teams because the positions they play are so physically demanding and that isn’t their game.

It’s no coincidence we looked better when Miski won that wing position. French has become an excellent 5/8th (I don’t like that term but in reality that is what he is) but initially swapping him for Miski saw our sets start off much better as French was often dominated on those carries out of our 20 where as in my opinion that is Miski best trait.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:20 pm  

French And Field have improved under our system aswell.
May didnt do anything in the final and was outplayed by his opposite.
AS I have stated not all players from the NRL have killed it over here
They are not super heroes ,St Helens brought them down to earth their best could not beat our best at the time,If Wigan beat them aswell then their best still couldnt beat our best at the time or is it because the ex NRL players are playing for Saints/Wigan at the time.

I will always talk SL up we have players as good as them not as many obviously but the Likes of George Williams/Burgess/Jammer etc proved we have.In my opinion its that we sometimes dont believe it.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:30 pm  

jonh wrote:

Pierce and Maloney were way past their prime when they came over.

Maloney was 34, Pierce 33.

Catalans have moved from a mid table team to a top team under their watch. They were outstanding playmakers.

May has been excellent for Catalans and gone to Hull KR on a massive contract despite NRL interest.

It will be very interesting to see how Catalans go next year without them given they moved from, 7th to 2nd under their watch.

The competition for places in the NRL particularly in the positions Field, French and Miski play is ridiculous.

Look at the wing and fullback options over there.

Reece Watch and Pongia can’t get the Aussie shirt it’s ridiculous, then they gave Trebijevic, Mitchell too all behind Tedesco and Edwards.

Miski has great physicality he’s great for Wigan and the way we play but I doubt he’d be anywhere mid table for pace with current NRL wingers and they have his physicality too.

I do think we have a gem in Miski to be honest as he’s perfect for the way we play but he won’t be on any NRL radars so will hopefully be with us for a long time to come. I do agree he has improved in the Wigan system particularly under the high ball.

I’m commented on French and Field earlier in the thread. Wonderful players and we are very lucky to have them as they are so entertaining to watch but I don’t think they would ever nail regular starting spots in NRL teams because the positions they play are so physically demanding and that isn’t their game.

It’s no coincidence we looked better when Miski won that wing position. French has become an excellent 5/8th (I don’t like that term but in reality that is what he is) but initially swapping him for Miski saw our sets start off much better as French was often dominated on those carries out of our 20 where as in my opinion that is Miski best trait.

Maloney at 33 guided the blues to a state of origin not past his prime by a long way,just saying.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:50 pm  

jonh wrote:

With all due respect most kids are drawn to the game because of their parents.

I’ve been a community coach for over 20 years and I’d say 80% because their parents have an interest in the game or association with a club, I’d say probably 15% come because they have mates that play and the remaining 5% are ones who come off their own back with no prior connections.

I totally agree about players and playing numbers. Rightly or wrongly too when players go to the NRL you start to see more of that clubs shirts at training worn by more lads (never coached in the field game although I am an admirer as it’s as brutal if not more so than some lads games).

There is always initial disappointment when a player goes but then a buzz once it’s accepted and one of their games is shown on Sky etc.

I may be wrong but I’m guess your daughter was drawn to Smith because you or someone close to her is a fan of him and talks about him positively too.

If he isn’t there someone else gets that attention.

The key to getting participation numbers up is getting it back in the schools. We haven’t had a player that transcends the sport since maybe Offiah, that’s one of the reasons I hoped the Farrell rumours were true as he was hand made already to transition as a personality.

I can’t remember a time when established community clubs have ever struggled to get junior teams out across all age groups from 6-18. Most clubs have at least 1 or 2 age groups missing.

Football is the biggest threat to participation numbers and Union is a growing risk too, however that works both ways.

As we see with most sports the media get interested in successful teams and their profile grows. Womens football is riding on the crest of a wave because of the success of the rep teams. A lot of the women who laid these foundations were developed in the American College system off the back of those players an Academy system was developed in England (actually headed up by an ex RL pathways manager Tony Fretwell) and now we have a league that can generally retain its players lots of media attention and revenue RL can only dream of.

We have to create a buzz around the international game we only do that by being successful on that stage and short term the only way to do that is get more players playing at a better level week in week out.

Well, you're wrong on several counts regarding our little girl but that's what happens when you rely on supposition.

I agree with some of what you say but you're looking at it back to front in my opinion. Let me go to extremes to make my point. Suppose all the players went to the NRL. How many fans do you reckon would follow the game even if we had a successful international side? People get interested at local level. That goes for any sport including football.

Of course a thriving international scene can increase interest massively but you don't achieve that by making the club game weaker.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 7:19 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Well, you're wrong on several counts regarding our little girl but that's what happens when you rely on supposition.

I agree with some of what you say but you're looking at it back to front in my opinion. Let me go to extremes to make my point. Suppose all the players went to the NRL. How many fans do you reckon would follow the game even if we had a successful international side? People get interested at the local level. That goes for any sport including football.

If course a thriving international scene can increase interest massively but you don't achieve that by making the club game weaker.

As mentioned I said I may be wrong about your daughter. However it’s very unusual for someone to be drawn to a rugby league player without some kind of link.

You are a passionate supporter clearly of Wigan. If you had no interest in Wigan and watched football and not rugby do you think your daughter would be drawn to the game and also Smith as a player? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen by the way it does but in my 20 years of coaching kids of all ages it is a massive minority.

My son’s girlfriend is one of the top u16s players in the country and I go to watch her play as part of dad’s taxi duties. Firstly it’s a fantastic game but what’s interesting I knew most of the dads when I went down as most of them played at the same time I did.

We make the international game better by exposing our players to the best facilities coaching and competition in the game. Robin Park is a great facility, outstanding but it’s generally an exception rather than the rule at SL clubs. Was lucky enough to get a tour of the North Queensland facility a few years ago and it was like nothing I’d ever seen in the game and I’ve worked at a number of SL clubs in the S&C departments.

It’s not a strategy that sits easy with me and I appreciate it’s controversial but a rep team from these shores has not beaten the Aussies in a series since Stevo was playing….and a good few of them had Australian club experience.

Was listening to a podcast with Shane Webke the other day. He said in his opinion he was prouder to wear the Aussie shirt than he was the Queensland shirt. He mentioned how much he loved coming to England on tour and the tussles they had.

I think it was 2003 when they came and we lost all 3 games in the last 5 minutes I don’t remember us ever being that close to a series win (I recall the Carl Gibson Meninga incident in the 80’s when we really could have beaten them but not really the full series) yet we lost all 3 games in the final minutes, he was asked why he thought that happened and his response was the England players were not used to playing at such an intense contest week in week out. James Graham agreed.

When players go it’s tough but I’m not sure the standard of the competition dips noticeably.

To improve the international game and realistically close the gap in the shortest time possible in my opinion we need to see a core of our players playing in the NRL. Creating a comp that can be on a level with the NRL and have players who remain in it is the ultimate goal but I don’t see how we do that without huge injections of cash and players neither of which are going to happen any time soon.

We obviously both want the same thing a competitive England team filled with English SL based players in front of full stadium but we clearly have differing theories of how to get there. I’m 45 I love the game I will watch it at any level as much as I can but sadly at the age of 45 I’ve not seen us be World Champions or beat the Australians in a series. If I’m honest I’ve not much hope of seeing that happen in my lifetime either.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:11 pm  

jonh wrote:

As mentioned I said I may be wrong about your daughter. However it’s very unusual for someone to be drawn to a rugby league player without some kind of link.

You are a passionate supporter clearly of Wigan. If you had no interest in Wigan and watched football and not rugby do you think your daughter would be drawn to the game and also Smith as a player? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen by the way it does but in my 20 years of coaching kids of all ages it is a massive minority.

My son’s girlfriend is one of the top u16s players in the country and I go to watch her play as part of dad’s taxi duties. Firstly it’s a fantastic game but what’s interesting I knew most of the dads when I went down as most of them played at the same time I did.

We make the international game better by exposing our players to the best facilities coaching and competition in the game. Robin Park is a great facility, outstanding but it’s generally an exception rather than the rule at SL clubs. Was lucky enough to get a tour of the North Queensland facility a few years ago and it was like nothing I’d ever seen in the game and I’ve worked at a number of SL clubs in the S&C departments.

It’s not a strategy that sits easy with me and I appreciate it’s controversial but a rep team from these shores has not beaten the Aussies in a series since Stevo was playing….and a good few of them had Australian club experience.

Was listening to a podcast with Shane Webke the other day. He said in his opinion he was prouder to wear the Aussie shirt than he was the Queensland shirt. He mentioned how much he loved coming to England on tour and the tussles they had.

I think it was 2003 when they came and we lost all 3 games in the last 5 minutes I don’t remember us ever being that close to a series win (I recall the Carl Gibson Meninga incident in the 80’s when we really could have beaten them but not really the full series) yet we lost all 3 games in the final minutes, he was asked why he thought that happened and his response was the England players were not used to playing at such an intense contest week in week out. James Graham agreed.

When players go it’s tough but I’m not sure the standard of the competition dips noticeably.

To improve the international game and realistically close the gap in the shortest time possible in my opinion we need to see a core of our players playing in the NRL. Creating a comp that can be on a level with the NRL and have players who remain in it is the ultimate goal but I don’t see how we do that without huge injections of cash and players neither of which are going to happen any time soon.

We obviously both want the same thing a competitive England team filled with English SL based players in front of full stadium but we clearly have differing theories of how to get there. I’m 45 I love the game I will watch it at any level as much as I can but sadly at the age of 45 I’ve not seen us be World Champions or beat the Australians in a series. If I’m honest I’ve not much hope of seeing that happen in my lifetime either.

I recall that Gibson incident (I was at that game and was gutted)and yes we should have won that,I also remember the Hall incident when Australia should have been knocked out and we play NZ in the final (that was a bent decision). But we all agree we need more International Games what with Australia losing some players to Tonga/Samoa/NZ etc.They now dont have the pick of all the best players.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:27 pm  

Jason65 wrote:

Maloney at 33 guided the blues to a state of origin not past his prime by a long way,just saying.

Guided lmao. He literally did nothing other than kick some goals. He was the worst player on the pitch lol

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:44 pm  

Jason65 wrote:

Maloney at 33 guided the blues to a state of origin not past his prime by a long way,just saying.

Name me any player that is in their prime at 34?

At 28/9 he was the Australian playmaker.

In the 2018 series he played all 3 games.

2019 he was dropped but selected for game 2.

He was obviously a great play maker and a great player for Catalans (which I think you were saying he wasn’t so I find it odd you are now maybe saying he was?).

The pattern over the years before he joined Catalans wasn’t one of a player on an upwards trajectory though.