Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:01 pm  

fleabag wrote:

Surely the question is....why are the quality all leaving ?

That's what needs to be answered.

If they move to the NRL its probably to play in a superior competition with arguably a better lifestyle, if to union its more than likely financial, you can be 'set up for life' if you accept their offer, not many have moved to other SL clubs.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:05 pm  

21-12 wrote:

Do what about it though?

For starters I would hold players down to the contracts they sign. Joel Tomkins wanted to try his hand at Rugby Union - tough - he signed a five year deal with Wigan and I would have kept him to it. And with Gareth Hock, the amount of money invested in not only his development as an RL player (he was on our books since he was 12) but the amount of time, money and resources put into his rehabilitation and the faith shown in him by the club to offer him a five year deal, I would keep the lad to it. I don't believe for one second Hock has a burning ambition to play in the NRL as you put here:

a 50% wage increase and a nice apartment over looking the beach, playing in the best league in the world over seeing scholes flats through my window and playing at belle vue on a Sunday afternoon.....wouldn't you?

Riddell's tweet tells us a lot.

The same argument for this is always "no point holding a player against his well etc etc" how come Leeds can hold down their players to the contracts they sign then but we can't? As DaveO has pointed out, Bradford have kept hold of Lulia - we should start to follow their example. I wonder - do these players have a genuine thirst to move to the NRL/Rugby Union or do they only do so because they know they can?

I remember Ian Lenagan publically stating he will never keep a player here against his will. This will start some debate, but I think that was one of the worst public statements he has ever made as a Wigan RL chairman. The exodus speaks for itself!

[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:10 pm  

21-12 wrote:

"If we didn't sell em"

Sometimes you can't stop a player leaving and il be honest, if I was Gareth hock is take a 50% wage increase and a nice apartment over looking the beach, playing in the best league in the world over seeing scholes flats through my window and playing at belle vue on a Sunday afternoon.....wouldn't you?

The idea you can't stop a player leaving is not true. If it were we could sign who we liked when we liked ourselves and it would be chaos all round, Bradford would not have been taken the cleaners in court when they signed Harris when they didn't have Leeds permission to do so/he was deemed Leeds player and Bradford would not have just been able to knock back Leeds offer for their current centre today.

The only reason Joel left and Hock may follow is because Wigan will have agreed to it. It is also totally unrealistic to suggest any club would sign a player who's registration is held by another club with whom he has a contract. The fact a player might fancy a bit of surfing or a pay rise has got nothing to do with these issues.

I am quite surprised its taken until this far down the thread for someone to come out with this tired old argument that clubs are powerless and all the rest of it.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:14 pm  

DaveO wrote:

Given he deliberately moved away from the way Madge did things why do you think he will do this? He clearly thought Madge's approach was wrong.

That pack will get beaten more often than it isn't and what happens if we pick up one or two injuries? Far too much pressure on Hansen and Lockers and if Wane continues with his nonsensical full contact training half of them will be out injured 2/3 of the way through the season. Isn't Hughes destined for the centres anyway? Where you get the idea Hock wouldn't even get in a team coached by Madge God only knows.

obivously madge wasn't wrong and i am sure wane knows that, also he only didnt want to be as conservative with ball in hand, but with less qaulity i think its best to just play hard and grind out wins.
no way will that pack get beat more than it wins not a chance, you either underestimating the players or over estimating superleague.
madge loves players who are willing to make the yards find there front and get a quick play of the ball and miss not many tackles, nothing like hock plays. hock does miss a few tackles and makes errors with offloads, totally against what madge stands for. thats where i get it from.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:27 pm  

cadoo wrote:

I remember Ian Lenagan publically stating he will never keep a player here against his will. This will start some debate, but I think that was one of the worst public statements he has ever made as a Wigan RL chairman. The exodus speaks for itself!

He's spoken in the past about seeing NRL and Union interest as a compliment. Maybe it is in a way but when we're sat here in a couple of years with our only top line player to show any loyalty in Sean O'Loughlin trying to lead a group of underdone youngsters through a barrage of criticism from the less forgiving supporters it won't really warm the cockles!

I've never quite got the same buzz from Union or the NRL poaching our players then I do from seeing us win a trophy funnily enough.

Re: Hock : Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:43 pm  

DaveO wrote:

WigansForeignLegion wrote:

I think part of the problem is a player having his head turned by a glamorous (NRL against SL) suitor. When a player is being approached it's bound to get them thinking. IF Hock goes it's more likely IL's cashing in on a player who doesn't want to stay and that makes sense (distasteful as it is for fans).

In which case as Hansen has reportedly been approached by Dean Bell why doesn't IL offer Hansen to the NZ Warriors now and get a fee rather than wait until his contract has expired next year and Wigan get nothing?

What about Mossop? He's on along term deal and rumours about him gong to the NRL have been knocking about. IL ought be able to raise a tidy sum for him as well.

Anyone else of interest to the NRL who we had better get shut of while we can make some money?

And yes, contracts mean jack when it's a buyers market.

Try telling Bradford that.

Christ Dave, I was merely surmising as to the rationale, it didn't warrant such a facetious comment. It's replies like yours there that makes internet boards an unpleasant place sometimes, worse when it comes from someone with a mod badge.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:41 am  

A rugby league player career is short lets face it most retire from top level rugbt around 33-35 years old (with the obvious exceptions). Hock has made one almighty mistake with his habit from a few years ago and has paid he price for it. He probably wants to look back on his career in 10 years time and say I didnt regret most of the things I did. And this opportunity will be too good to miss. He'll have better pay, better weather and playing in what is regarded as a better competition

I normally dont slag off the RFL but I will do now. Because they have pandered to the likes of Cas, Wakey, HKR and others they have weakend the competition. Clubs should be spending up to the cap now especially since it hasn't been increased since it's introduction. With the rate of inflation clubs should be spending up to the cap. Unfortunately clubs are not so something is flawed there. Also the knock on effect is that the quality is lacking.

[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:44 am  

WigansForeignLegion wrote:

Christ Dave, I was merely surmising as to the rationale, it didn't warrant such a facetious comment. It's replies like yours there that makes internet boards an unpleasant place sometimes, worse when it comes from someone with a mod badge.

Apologies if it came across a bit strong. I get fed up of hearing the excuses such as "well we got a big transfer fee" or " contracts are worthless" or "you'd do the same if you could get a 50% pay rise" etc etc.

I find all these kind of points equally irrelevant as what NickyKiss said above when he mentioned IL saying being approached for our players is flattering but ultimately what good is that when we have little quality left? I don't really give a toss if we can sell players for big fees or what sort of pay rise they can get if we end up with a low quality side and that seems to be what is happening. I want Wigan to assemble a high quality side and keep it together not be wondering which one of our star players is going to leave next before their contracts are up.

Maybe when IL speaks to Phil Wilkinson today he we quash the Hock rumour but even if he does I think the discussion is now broader than just him and people have woken up to the fact we really have lost too much quality in one go whether he stays or goes.

Anyway, once again apologies if I came across too strong.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:00 am  

cadoo wrote:

Feck it, I'll say it; this sucks and I am completely disillusioned with our game.

We've had Jeff Lima move to South Sydney, Brett Finch and Thomas Leuluai opt to move to the NRL, we've got rumours of Gareth Hock leaving to the NRL, Harrison Hansen set to be poached by New Zealand Warriors, strong rumours of Lee Mossop going on a 'sabbatical' leave to the NRL. Coupled with the fact Union snapped up Joel Tomkins - a tremendous talent lost to the game - and inevitably we resign ourselves to losing our star player, our competition's flagship player Sam Tomkins to Union when we allow ourselves to bend over and let him speak to whoever the hell he wants next year. This flat out sucks.

Okay, critics will say Wigan have poached Blake Green and Scott Taylor from Hull KR, but just say that to yourself, Blake Green and Scott Taylor. Wigan's star signing next season is Blake Green. Without getting all the scapegoat, give him a chance, stop writing him off before he's kicked a ball spiel, I never imagined for a second we would see a halfback combination of Matty Smith and Blake Green at Wigan. All our best players appear to be leaving/left/retired without any like-for-like quality coming in. Sam Tomkins, George Carmont, Jeff Lima, Brett Finch, Thomas Leuluai, Gareth Hock, Harrison Hansen, Lee Mossop etc and who are we bringing in? Epalahame Lauaki, Anthony Gelling, Ben Flower, Gil Dudson, Scott Taylor, Matty Smith, Blake Green - it makes for horrible reading. Finally the RFL will have the even competition they've been looking for when we're on the same level as Wakefield, Salford, London and all them other rubbish little clubs.

What is the point in heavy investment in our youth setup, developing and nuturing these young RL players not just as a player but as men too, seeing them progress through our academy system, integrate them into the first team, establish themselves in the first team to eventually move up to England RL players to then see them as established players poached by Union or the NRL. And the only BS you hear in return is "well we got a substantial transfer fee" or "we'll develop another one" or "IMO -insert any young academy player- is going to be a better player anyway" - all ridiculous points to make. The transfer fee money is no use because we can't afford the salaries of a like-for-like replacement due to salary cap restraints i.e Blake Green (Brett Finch), Matty Smith (Thomas Leuluai), that young lad who people think will excel and replace the departed player will only end up being snapped again by the NRL/Union or might well just not be as good. I mean, will Wigan ever develop a player like Sam Tomkins in the next twenty years? Say the next ten years?

Yes this is a dummy spit and probably makes for a tremendous laugh for some of the trolls on here but that is sad in itself. The glee other supporters will get when the best players from our competition (Finch/Leuluai/Carmont/Lima - possibly Mossop/Hock/Hansen/Tomkins) are poached to another sport/competition and Super League, the product they are paying for, is worse off for it, but who cares as long as we can finally compete with Wigan.

Well said, IL is turning into a minge bag, it needs to be said. Comments to the effect of "we dont keep players who want to move away" is poor to say the least. If he is a 'business man' you would think he would be as shrewd about this as he is about making a profit at the club. All I have heard out of his pie hole has been "the club is making a profit" it's not difficult to see where his priorities are heading now.

If they want fans to commit to season tickets they are going to have to better than this, coupled with the play off system debacle and our lack of investment in playing staff a lot of Wigan fans have questioned a season ticket option this coming year.

I called for a club forum and had some correspondance from the club that they may do it early 2013 but IMO that is too late, nine players departed so far with rumours of more...

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:26 am  

Not annoyed at Hock because it's fully understandable why he'd want to go, but it's just depressing that we can barely keep our good players.

Can't believe we've kept Pat Richards this long, at least there's that.