Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:34 pm  

Pie_Eyter wrote:

Won't be winning many trophies with Powell at 9.

Apart from the 2 grand finals we've already won?

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:30 pm  

bedfordwarrior wrote:

Alright lads. First post, be kind!

So I’m from down south and tbh come from a Union background but always followed League/Wigan, watch all the TV games, and been a long time lurker on the forums.

Thought that last night anything that could go wrong did go wrong, and we blew up spectacularly over the course of 80 mins. Credit to Leeds, defended well and when they had the chance to land the killer blows they did and were worthy winners no question, but let’s focus on Wigan…

I know it’s knockout rugby but the tactics got very conservative, even then we got plenty of go forward but seemed strange to take width and pace off our play and don’t think it helped matters in terms of turning points into pressure.

French’s injury seemed to be a key moment, he hobbled on for a bit but we effectively had no right flank (then had to reshuffle) and though I wouldn’t say the team panicked, definitely became unsettled and scratchy in everything it did. Attack stuttered, discipline went a bit, then the defence, and all of a sudden chasing the game.

Then the red card and you knew the game was up. To be honest we kept going and had some chances and maybe one or two decisions go against, but the damage was done, you knew it.

Do have some general musings/questions as a noob.

The pivots were a massive problem last night. Leuluai was so slow in attack, and retirement is the right call. Smith didn’t have a good game, was snatching at his kicking and passing, but had to do everything in fairness and had switched sides and maybe timings etc. were off. Cust isn’t a top drawer player, but he has a calm head and plays at the line, and he was missed last night. 9 was a massive problem though. I know from reading for years that Powell is marmite and the argument has been done to death, but I’m one of those who doesn’t get it. His qualities are always talked about as defence/leadership/culture etc…. ok great, what about consistent core competencies for a 9? Even at his best he is achingly slow to get the ball away from the ruck, he doesn’t fix or control the defence from the ruck, his passing technique and “snap” is really limited, and he has next to zero running game. As I say I’m a bit of an onlooker I admit, but he’s the first one I’d change and can’t believe Wigan don’t want more of an up-tempo guy who puts pace into proceedings the likes of Field and French etc. can thrive off the back of. Time to get away from the McIlorum/Powell types, in my opinion.

Bateman is another I have issues with, just in that he’s nothing like the player he was before and then in Australia. I admit I only see the TV games and it's not likely a popular view, and the stats arguments always look good for him, but for a senior player reckoned to be one of the best around I always see daft errors or him trying to do too much (leading to more errors) or then last night no discipline. His performances, what I see, aren’t worthy of your marquee player, he’s not even a top 5 performer what I see this year. He must be better.

Think I agree with everyone in that Centre positions must be better. There needs to be a bit more x-factor, oomph, quality, call it what you will. Bigger, quicker, can carry harder, release their winger, any upgrade in these areas would be nice. I’d probably also controversially throw in the second rows into equation here – Farrell and Bateman (despite what I said above) are quality players but I always notice both instinctively like to step back inside and see what develops and both more elusive runners. Some powerhouse wider runner could come from this position as an alternative, but whatever, I think somewhere at 3,4,11, or 12 this would help the team and create even more space (especially in the biggest games, where we have got shutdown a bit) for the back three to do their work.

But anyway, I’ll stop there with the ramblings. A disappointing end to what’s been an encouraging season in terms of an upturn in both results and the rugby being played.

I'm in catch up mode so only just picked up your post.
Agree with a lot of that.
We need at least 2 new centres and ideally a LF. I'd happily "swap" Bateman for a decent LF and play Smithies in the 2nd row.
The guys who I go to the game with don't think that we need any new blood in the backrow, I think we are screaming out for it.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:58 pm  

Firstly I thought Leeds defended as their lives depended upon it.
Fantastic defence and they took the few opportunities that came their way with composure and professionalism.
If I was a Leeds fan last night I would have ecstatic with that performance after an awful start to season and some horrendous levels of injuries during the season.
They will be even better I suspect, come next season.

We looked slow in thought at times and our passing seems to have lost that bit of zing and accuracy that gives us time and space to use our pace.. Leeds obviously played a part in this last night but Cust not being there I feel also played a significant part of it.
Just 4-2 up at half time I feared that Leeds would come back strong in the second half. It was one of those occasions where I wish I was wrong with my predictions.

Personally I would started with O.Neil and put Powell on the bench. Playing Powell and Tommy I thought was high risk and O'Neil has been decent at hooker and I thought deserved his place.

2022 has been one of my favourite seasons in the last plus 50 years in watching the club.
The team are nowhere being one the best teams but what they have given me is some fantastic memories and some unbelievable tries with the Salford game away being a particular favourite.
They've put pride back into the club after some awful seasons performance wise and they are back in the community again after too long an absence.
For me we are still some way of being a very good side but with Matty Peet at the helm I'm pretty confident that 2022 will be a season to build on and that we will improve over the next few seasons.

I think that most of us know where new recruits are required and now that IL and KR are back in the zone I am quite hopeful that we will improve the overall quality of the squad next season

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:02 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

I'm in catch up mode so only just picked up your post.
Agree with a lot of that.
We need at least 2 new centres and ideally a LF. I'd happily "swap" Bateman for a decent LF and play Smithies in the 2nd row.
The guys who I go to the game with don't think that we need any new blood in the backrow, I think we are screaming out for it.

I am not sure we need new blood as a starter at second row/LF but we really could do with an effective interchange who can come on and bring some momentum, Faz is a top player but on the smaller side, Isa is a willing worker but limited. Oh for a Betts or Goodway type for the older viewers Partington, Shorrocks have had chances but not really been consistently good enough.

For me Ellis and Mago are big disappointments , Ellis started ok but has drifted a lot (seemingly since the sending off against Cats) whilst Mago for his go forward makes a lot of daft mistakes and not really much comes off him, I would let either or both go for one better repalcement.

Centre is (and has been) a glaring weakness for a long time.Thornley is ok when he plays but his injury record is poor and we can't rely on him stringing a consistent run of games together on a regular basis. Playing second rowers there is only an option in times of injury - it weakens both positions.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:25 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Apart from the 2 grand finals we've already won?

Don't care what he HAS won. Jamie Vardy won't be winning any more Premier League's but will still play in the top league. We won't be progressing from the front if Powell is the pivot.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:29 am  

It would have been interesting if the Marshall disallowed try had been given. I thought it was only ruled out due to poor freeze frame, never any sign of separation and if sent up as a try it it would have been given.

Looking at the game;

We weren't sharp enough in key spine positions. Having both Powell and Tommy in there stifled creativity and threat. It made Leeds easy to read and slide across in defence.

Out wide, we had no one straightening up the attack. The lack of a strong centre or 2nd row makes this an obvious flaw.

We have 3 back routers who are all great club men but have very little differentiation and is a weakness in our recruitment policy as we really need to offer a different point of attack and penetration.


I thought we would work on some new attacking moves to inject Field or KPP into the attacking line, but it just seemed pass out wide and hope Field pulls in a defender then a flat pass to the wing.

We relied too much on that move to French and Marshall and makes it easy for a good defence to read.

We should be looking at how we get Field on the shoulder of a strong off loading forward, Cooper didn't offload once, Mago can't remember any. It should have been a big part of our game.

Finally despite all the talk about off the cuff play what you see, we should take a look at Saints in attack inside the 20. They invariably come through Lomax and he slides a kick through, and every time at least two forwards are racing onto it. They must practice this until they can do it in their sleep. Same with Lomax's high kick to the corner, Batchelor is always full speed half a stride behind him and they challenge and usually get the ball, force a mistake or pin the on the line. Again they can do this in their sleep..

We need this type of play as an option against a defence that is well organised.

Overall a great season,, best in years, well done to all the players they've entertained and turned the club around. Interesting to see how we develop next year as we need to build on this year.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:05 am  

Big Steve wrote:

It would have been interesting if the Marshall disallowed try had been given. I thought it was only ruled out due to poor freeze frame, never any sign of separation and if sent up as a try it it would have been given.

Looking at the game;

We weren't sharp enough in key spine positions. Having both Powell and Tommy in there stifled creativity and threat. It made Leeds easy to read and slide across in defence.

Out wide, we had no one straightening up the attack. The lack of a strong centre or 2nd row makes this an obvious flaw.

We have 3 back routers who are all great club men but have very little differentiation and is a weakness in our recruitment policy as we really need to offer a different point of attack and penetration.


I thought we would work on some new attacking moves to inject Field or KPP into the attacking line, but it just seemed pass out wide and hope Field pulls in a defender then a flat pass to the wing.

We relied too much on that move to French and Marshall and makes it easy for a good defence to read.

We should be looking at how we get Field on the shoulder of a strong off loading forward, Cooper didn't offload once, Mago can't remember any. It should have been a big part of our game.

Finally despite all the talk about off the cuff play what you see, we should take a look at Saints in attack inside the 20. They invariably come through Lomax and he slides a kick through, and every time at least two forwards are racing onto it. They must practice this until they can do it in their sleep. Same with Lomax's high kick to the corner, Batchelor is always full speed half a stride behind him and they challenge and usually get the ball, force a mistake or pin the on the line. Again they can do this in their sleep..

We need this type of play as an option against a defence that is well organised.

Overall a great season,, best in years, well done to all the players they've entertained and turned the club around. Interesting to see how we develop next year as we need to build on this year.

The three try assists from Lomax yesterday were world class. Pretty much unplayable with how close he took the ball to the line.

The intensity with which Saints started both halves was impressive. We started the game pretty well (after the Singleton knock on) whereas our opening 10 in the 2nd half was awful and ultimately cost us the game.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:36 am  

MadDogg wrote:

The three try assists from Lomax yesterday were world class. Pretty much unplayable with how close he took the ball to the line.

The intensity with which Saints started both halves was impressive. We started the game pretty well (after the Singleton knock on) whereas our opening 10 in the 2nd half was awful and ultimately cost us the game.

Our intensity was great. We should have gone into the 2nd half 3 scores up. I just think we look a little lost when camped in the 20 against a good defence which doesn't get sucked in.

Saints have 2 or 3 moves they just nail every game which cause panic on the best of defences, all based on repetitive practice, consistent behaviour and skillful kicking of Lomax, and Batchelor being in exactly the right place every time.

We were crying out for some structure like that rather than shift to the wings.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:53 am  

Big Steve wrote:

Our intensity was great. We should have gone into the 2nd half 3 scores up. I just think we look a little lost when camped in the 20 against a good defence which doesn't get sucked in.

Saints have 2 or 3 moves they just nail every game which cause panic on the best of defences, all based on repetitive practice, consistent behaviour and skillful kicking of Lomax, and Batchelor being in exactly the right place every time.

We were crying out for some structure like that rather than shift to the wings.

It’s strange how fans of different teams have such different thoughts. I think we struggle with attack close to the line considering the possession we invariably have. Lomax is a brilliant player and everything comes from him but if Welsby has a quiet day (as yesterday) we can struggle. We’ve missed Dodd hugely which has impacted our attack.

It’s a reason why I’m hoping we get an assistant focusing on attack next season. Briers has done a brilliant job with Wigan on that score. Defensively we are still outstanding and the way we started yesterday was a blueprint to how to play knockout rugby.

Bar Friday Wigans attack has looked much better than ours, with options everywhere especially with Field coming into the line. I think Cust was a huge loss for you.

Re: Leeds (h) play-offs : Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:55 am  

Big Steve wrote:

Our intensity was great. We should have gone into the 2nd half 3 scores up. I just think we look a little lost when camped in the 20 against a good defence which doesn't get sucked in.

Saints have 2 or 3 moves they just nail every game which cause panic on the best of defences, all based on repetitive practice, consistent behaviour and skillful kicking of Lomax, and Batchelor being in exactly the right place every time.

We were crying out for some structure like that rather than shift to the wings.

Our passing was too slow and our timing was way off.