Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:00 pm  

Sadly Richards may be one of the next batch of players away. He along with Hansen are out of contract at the end aren't they? And I'd guess teams will sniff around them both and the incentives to stay look minimul the way things are going. We have to also consider the distinct possibility that Tomkins and maybe Mossop will be going through the exit door at the end of 2013 as well which makes re-signings harder in a way.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:15 pm  

The 2013 Rugby League World Cup in this country will be the death knell of the professional era

The 2015 Rugby Union World Cup in this country will show any class player where the future, organisation skills, public support, and money lies.

RIP RL ...it was great whilst it lasted

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:38 pm  

wigvet wrote:

The 2013 Rugby League World Cup in this country will be the death knell of the professional era

The 2015 Rugby Union World Cup in this country will show any class player where the future, organisation skills, public support, and money lies.

RIP RL ...it was great whilst it lasted

Totally agree 100%.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:16 pm  

chrissie wrote:

Totally agree 100%.

Completely true.

Good luck to Hock though, wish him all the best, he should definitely take the opportunity.

*IF* Nigel Wood remains in charge:

RL in the UK is probably finished as a major sport. In 10 years there'll be a top-flight Wigan-based RU team, maybe the bast@rd child of Sale and Wigan. Wigan RL will be a semi-pro club, along with all the others, feeding the RU team. Every few weeks we'll get a statement from the RFL telling us how great everything is to make us feel better.

I have faith though that enough people love the game that this won't happen. One way or another they'll eventually find a way to get him and the rest of the RFL to resign.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:33 pm  

twosevenzero wrote:

If they move to the NRL its probably to play in a superior competition with arguably a better lifestyle, if to union its more than likely financial, you can be 'set up for life' if you accept their offer, not many have moved to other SL clubs.

But it's more than that isn't it ?

What about Finch ? Hardly a 'marquee player' but a decent one, but we couldn't even hold onto him. Apparently he wanted to stay.

George Carmont now appears NOT to be retiring. So what was that all about ?

For decades, Wigan due to it's 'RL culture' has churned out players. Unlike anywhere else in the UK. Now if I have spotted that, so have other people.

Wigan, even though a small town, regularly pulls in the crowds, again due to the almost unique culture for Rugby League.

Again, this will have been noticed.

The above 2 points equal assets. Crowds and players production, both can equal money.

A 'business man' will look at his P&L sheet and use those two variables.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:45 pm  

wigvet wrote:

The 2013 Rugby League World Cup in this country will be the death knell of the professional era

The 2015 Rugby Union World Cup in this country will show any class player where the future, organisation skills, public support, and money lies.

RIP RL ...it was great whilst it lasted

We all agree (well I hope that we do!) that RL is the finest spectator team sport in this country, if not the world. It certainly knocks kick and clap into a cocked hat. However why is Ra-Ra so popular? Well, that's because the mass media tell us so... The RFU have done a tremendous job in promoting what is a dull, tedius spectacle, into the glittering raz-mataz that it isn't. The inertia has built up over decades, and now is an unstoppable force.
What do we have to promote our game to the greater public ...? Ray B****y French, and similar joke presenters before him. Until we adopt a professional approach to marketing our wonderful game to the masses, we'll always be a 'comedy sport' in the eyes of most.
The RFL need to wake up and smell the coffee regarding marketing, and promotion.. to convice the country, nay the world, that RL is THE sport to watch and play....

I know... lets get Derren Brown is as RFL Chairman and head of media marketing

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:42 pm  

tedglen wrote:

We all agree (well I hope that we do!) that RL is the finest spectator team sport in this country, if not the world. It certainly knocks kick and clap into a cocked hat. However why is Ra-Ra so popular? Well, that's because the mass media tell us so... The RFU have done a tremendous job in promoting what is a dull, tedius spectacle, into the glittering raz-mataz that it isn't. The inertia has built up over decades, and now is an unstoppable force.
What do we have to promote our game to the greater public ...? Ray B****y French, and similar joke presenters before him. Until we adopt a professional approach to marketing our wonderful game to the masses, we'll always be a 'comedy sport' in the eyes of most.
The RFL need to wake up and smell the coffee regarding marketing, and promotion.. to convice the country, nay the world, that RL is THE sport to watch and play....

I know... lets get Derren Brown is as RFL Chairman and head of media marketing

Nothing will significantly improve with Wood in charge. Nobody half-talented would want that guy as their boss.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:48 pm  

cadoo wrote:

Feck it, I'll say it; this sucks and I am completely disillusioned with our game.

We've had Jeff Lima move to South Sydney, Brett Finch and Thomas Leuluai opt to move to the NRL, we've got rumours of Gareth Hock leaving to the NRL, Harrison Hansen set to be poached by New Zealand Warriors, strong rumours of Lee Mossop going on a 'sabbatical' leave to the NRL. Coupled with the fact Union snapped up Joel Tomkins - a tremendous talent lost to the game - and inevitably we resign ourselves to losing our star player, our competition's flagship player Sam Tomkins to Union when we allow ourselves to bend over and let him speak to whoever the hell he wants next year. This flat out sucks.

Okay, critics will say Wigan have poached Blake Green and Scott Taylor from Hull KR, but just say that to yourself, Blake Green and Scott Taylor. Wigan's star signing next season is Blake Green. Without getting all the scapegoat, give him a chance, stop writing him off before he's kicked a ball spiel, I never imagined for a second we would see a halfback combination of Matty Smith and Blake Green at Wigan. All our best players appear to be leaving/left/retired without any like-for-like quality coming in. Sam Tomkins, George Carmont, Jeff Lima, Brett Finch, Thomas Leuluai, Gareth Hock, Harrison Hansen, Lee Mossop etc and who are we bringing in? Epalahame Lauaki, Anthony Gelling, Ben Flower, Gil Dudson, Scott Taylor, Matty Smith, Blake Green - it makes for horrible reading. Finally the RFL will have the even competition they've been looking for when we're on the same level as Wakefield, Salford, London and all them other rubbish little clubs.

What is the point in heavy investment in our youth setup, developing and nuturing these young RL players not just as a player but as men too, seeing them progress through our academy system, integrate them into the first team, establish themselves in the first team to eventually move up to England RL players to then see them as established players poached by Union or the NRL. And the only BS you hear in return is "well we got a substantial transfer fee" or "we'll develop another one" or "IMO -insert any young academy player- is going to be a better player anyway" - all ridiculous points to make. The transfer fee money is no use because we can't afford the salaries of a like-for-like replacement due to salary cap restraints i.e Blake Green (Brett Finch), Matty Smith (Thomas Leuluai), that young lad who people think will excel and replace the departed player will only end up being snapped again by the NRL/Union or might well just not be as good. I mean, will Wigan ever develop a player like Sam Tomkins in the next twenty years? Say the next ten years?

Yes this is a dummy spit and probably makes for a tremendous laugh for some of the trolls on here but that is sad in itself. The glee other supporters will get when the best players from our competition (Finch/Leuluai/Carmont/Lima - possibly Mossop/Hock/Hansen/Tomkins) are poached to another sport/competition and Super League, the product they are paying for, is worse off for it, but who cares as long as we can finally compete with Wigan.

There is some truth to this, and poaching by Union will be a problem as long as they are bankrolled by the Eton brigade and we're not. That said, I'm not as convinced as you that Sam Tomkins will leave.

But, some of the players you use are leading you to over-state the problem. Finch, Leuluai, Carmont and Lima are hardly Wigan youth products being sold on. They are players who have done varying stints here and are now heading home. Finch certainly, and probably Lima wouldn't have been in the UK in the first place if it hadn't been for salary cap issues down under/ Likewise Harrison Hansen will have some roots in NZ and will be looking to further his international prospects by moving to the Warriors.

Some of this is also an artefact of Wigan's recruitment policy, you bring in experienced Aussie half backs, they will go back to Aus in the not too distant future. Bringing in another Aussie-grown player to replace them isn't really addressing the issue.

To some extent you also become prisoner of your own success. When players have won trophies and played for England (thanks to the way the club is run) they will (justifiably) start to feel like they might be worth a bit more cash next time their contracts are renewed. Leeds have been having this problem for a while now. Even if you got rid of the salary cap, the need to keep the business solvent is going to limit how many players you can keep once they become stars. It is also probably true (debated point I know) that if you raise the cap to a level where only a few teams can pay it, you lose any chance of increasing the competitiveness of the league (which is an ongoing battle as it is) and that might well actually hurt the product, which would hurt Wigan's ability to pay big money. As a Leeds fan, I support one of the small group of teams who could gain by paying a higher salary bill, but I don't really want to see it happen.

Exchange rates are not in our favour. Plus there are other reasons people might fancy a year or two down under. It's probably a good thing for a young bloke to experience, the competition is a higher standard, the profile higher. Plus, the weather is warmer and not everyone shares my love of the British winter. So it needn't all be about the money. Rumours abounded at the time that Gaz Ellis took a pay cut to leave Leeds for Wests. I have no idea whether it was true.

For all this, while we have seen a few players move to Aus, I don't think that actually hurts the game, the mass exodus to Union continues to not happen, largely because expensive League converts have turned out not to be worth the investment more often than they have been massive successes (it's almost as if they're different games with different skill sets...). This is why the RFU have stopped paying for them. If somebody wants to find the huge cash to lure Sam Tomkins away from a club and sport where he seems very happy, it will have to be a club that funds it.

So, while I can see your point, I'm not sure I can share your disillusionment in the game when a lot of what you're concerned apart is the natural transition process that occurs when a successful side has a lot of players at an age when they're ready to move on.

When you're feeling underwhelmed by new signings, consider whether you were really excited when George Carmont signed? Turned out nice though didn't it?

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:58 pm  

Why would Tomkins leave at the end of next year he is supposed to have 5 year deal with 2012 2013 2014 where he cant talk to NRL or RU so how can he go at end of 2013 ? Wigan just need to tell him hes staying and he should stay simple as or he will need to walk out on his deal. Sam is probably the reason other players leave as theres not enough money on the cap to pay the likes of hock, hansen and mossop what there worth because he is on about £200,000 more than the next player.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:05 pm  

El Diablo wrote:

There is some truth to this, and poaching by Union will be a problem as long as they are bankrolled by the Eton brigade and we're not. That said, I'm not as convinced as you that Sam Tomkins will leave.

But, some of the players you use are leading you to over-state the problem. Finch, Leuluai, Carmont and Lima are hardly Wigan youth products being sold on. They are players who have done varying stints here and are now heading home. Finch certainly, and probably Lima wouldn't have been in the UK in the first place if it hadn't been for salary cap issues down under/ Likewise Harrison Hansen will have some roots in NZ and will be looking to further his international prospects by moving to the Warriors.

Some of this is also an artefact of Wigan's recruitment policy, you bring in experienced Aussie half backs, they will go back to Aus in the not too distant future. Bringing in another Aussie-grown player to replace them isn't really addressing the issue.

To some extent you also become prisoner of your own success. When players have won trophies and played for England (thanks to the way the club is run) they will (justifiably) start to feel like they might be worth a bit more cash next time their contracts are renewed. Leeds have been having this problem for a while now. Even if you got rid of the salary cap, the need to keep the business solvent is going to limit how many players you can keep once they become stars. It is also probably true (debated point I know) that if you raise the cap to a level where only a few teams can pay it, you lose any chance of increasing the competitiveness of the league (which is an ongoing battle as it is) and that might well actually hurt the product, which would hurt Wigan's ability to pay big money. As a Leeds fan, I support one of the small group of teams who could gain by paying a higher salary bill, but I don't really want to see it happen.

Exchange rates are not in our favour. Plus there are other reasons people might fancy a year or two down under. It's probably a good thing for a young bloke to experience, the competition is a higher standard, the profile higher. Plus, the weather is warmer and not everyone shares my love of the British winter. So it needn't all be about the money. Rumours abounded at the time that Gaz Ellis took a pay cut to leave Leeds for Wests. I have no idea whether it was true.

For all this, while we have seen a few players move to Aus, I don't think that actually hurts the game, the mass exodus to Union continues to not happen, largely because expensive League converts have turned out not to be worth the investment more often than they have been massive successes (it's almost as if they're different games with different skill sets...). This is why the RFU have stopped paying for them. If somebody wants to find the huge cash to lure Sam Tomkins away from a club and sport where he seems very happy, it will have to be a club that funds it.

So, while I can see your point, I'm not sure I can share your disillusionment in the game when a lot of what you're concerned apart is the natural transition process that occurs when a successful side has a lot of players at an age when they're ready to move on.

When you're feeling underwhelmed by new signings, consider whether you were really excited when George Carmont signed? Turned out nice though didn't it?

If I had the time & the energy I would have attempted something similar as a response, well done.