Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:37 am  

Hill I’d put ahead of Mago going forward. I thought he did really well on Friday and should’ve done more minutes. Some of the defensive efforts from Mago were diabolical. I’d rather rotate that last bench spot between Hill and Nsemba and stop flogging the dead horse that is Mago. He had an improved run going in to Friday but you just can’t trust him when it matters the most.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:24 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

KPP either starting or on the bench would be one. Bateman (going into the season at least) would be another. I think perhaps more importantly than just the numbers out is it severely affects the ability for proper rotation. Mago and Hill are playing very short minutes which is upping the workload on the other front rowers. Havard replaces Hill is a supreme example of this. Havard is a 60 minute 100+ metre per game prop. Hill isn't (at least not yet).

Who does KPP replace?

I’m unsure as to why Hill is doing such short stints. Fitness level? Coach protecting him? Coach not trusting him?
Why did we sign Mago? Another nrl signing whose fitness levels are almost non existent.
Not sure what you mean Phuzzy by proper rotation. 20 minutes spells or longer when we have injuries? Ellis I suspect could do longer minutes from the get go but does them now to cover Mago.

We could have refused Bateman’s transfer. Obviously having a disgruntled player in the squad is bad but sometimes you have to make a statement.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:25 am  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

Who does KPP replace?

I’m unsure as to why Hill is doing such short stints. Fitness level? Coach protecting him? Coach not trusting him?
Why did we sign Mago? Another nrl signing whose fitness levels are almost non existent.
Not sure what you mean Phuzzy by proper rotation. 20 minutes spells or longer when we have injuries? Ellis I suspect could do longer minutes from the get go but does them now to cover Mago.

We could have refused Bateman’s transfer. Obviously having a disgruntled player in the squad is bad but sometimes you have to make a statement.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you re: retention and recruitment Itchy. My post actually agrees with this. It's the fact that the incoming aren't even close to replacing the unavailable ones that makes the problem more than one of pure numbers. To put it more simply, you could have 5 players out but if the 5 replacements are equally as good then the numbers out are of little consequence.

Take the Wire 11 props missing (just joking) as an example of what I mean. It's not really a loss if you have Dudson missing but Bullock replacing him. Or in our own case (the stand off issue notwithstanding) if Field is replaced by French at fullback.

Our problem in the pack is that those out have no direct (or even acceptable) replacements.

KPP would be a starter instead of Isa in your examples or would have replaced a bench player if Isa starts.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:11 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you re: retention and recruitment Itchy. My post actually agrees with this. It's the fact that the incoming aren't even close to replacing the unavailable ones that makes the problem more than one of pure numbers. To put it more simply, you could have 5 players out but if the 5 replacements are equally as good then the numbers out are of little consequence.

Take the Wire 11 props missing (just joking) as an example of what I mean. It's not really a loss if you have Dudson missing but Bullock replacing him. Or in our own case (the stand off issue notwithstanding) if Field is replaced by French at fullback.

Our problem in the pack is that those out have no direct (or even acceptable) replacements.

KPP would be a starter instead of Isa in your examples or would have replaced a bench player if Isa starts.

The problem with Isa or KPP on the bench would mean only 2 props on the bench assuming we go with our customary hooker on the bench. With only Havard and Ellis capable of long minutes we would end up playing Isa or KPP at prop at some point. Just not good enough.
I’ve said for sometime that our squad is too thin and too inexperienced. We started the season with no experienced 6 and virtually zero cover in an already lightweight backrow. I’m not a Bateman fan so even if he had remained our backrow would have been too lightweight.

I’ve not totally written us off but I’d be pretty surprised if any team that has won the GF had 40+ points posted against them twice halfway through the season. Hopefully we can sneak a win next week against Wire and with a bit of luck we could get another CC final.

Peet has his work cut out to get us a top 6 place at the end of the season with Leyth, HKR and Salford being our main challengers for the 3 remaining places on the assumption that Saints, Catalan and Wire will fill the top 3.
Next season for me we need 2 experienced props, 2 experienced backrow forwards and a HB who has a decent kicking game and ideally,can also kick goals. I suspect we could sign 3 nrl players as part of this assuming Mago, Cust and Miski depart leaving 2 from SL which is a very small pool of very average talent. A very difficult assignment for KR and IL to achieve and it may take 2 years to achieve this.
It will be very interesting to see how recruiting goes over the next few months.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:18 am  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

The problem with Isa or KPP on the bench would mean only 2 props on the bench assuming we go with our customary hooker on the bench. With only Havard and Ellis capable of long minutes we would end up playing Isa or KPP at prop at some point. Just not good enough.
I’ve said for sometime that our squad is too thin and too inexperienced. We started the season with no experienced 6 and virtually zero cover in an already lightweight backrow. I’m not a Bateman fan so even if he had remained our backrow would have been too lightweight.

I’ve not totally written us off but I’d be pretty surprised if any team that has won the GF had 40+ points posted against them twice halfway through the season. Hopefully we can sneak a win next week against Wire and with a bit of luck we could get another CC final.

Peet has his work cut out to get us a top 6 place at the end of the season with Leyth, HKR and Salford being our main challengers for the 3 remaining places on the assumption that Saints, Catalan and Wire will fill the top 3.
Next season for me we need 2 experienced props, 2 experienced backrow forwards and a HB who has a decent kicking game and ideally,can also kick goals. I suspect we could sign 3 nrl players as part of this assuming Mago, Cust and Miski depart leaving 2 from SL which is a very small pool of very average talent. A very difficult assignment for KR and IL to achieve and it may take 2 years to achieve this.
It will be very interesting to see how recruiting goes over the next few months.

I'm not entirely sure why you would object to a backrower on the bench with a prop rotation of Havard, Ellis, Cooper and Byrne? It's something we have traditionally done with a full compliment of first choice front rowers and someone who can "change a game" from the bench is usually regarded as a good thing. Why would we need to play Isa at prop? I don't understand. That 4 could comfortably cover the full 80 minutes between them without the need for anyone to do long minutes.

The rest I agree with.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:08 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'm not entirely sure why you would object to a backrower on the bench with a prop rotation of Havard, Ellis, Cooper and Byrne? It's something we have traditionally done with a full compliment of first choice front rowers and someone who can "change a game" from the bench is usually regarded as a good thing. Why would we need to play Isa at prop? I don't understand. That 4 could comfortably cover the full 80 minutes between them without the need for anyone to do long minutes.

The rest I agree with.

Injuries and squad rotation is why we need an extra prop, also for certain games we could play Ellis or Cooper at 13 as an extra prop. Could play Havard in the back row to bulk up the pack.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:38 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

Next season for me we need 2 experienced props, 2 experienced backrow forwards and a HB who has a decent kicking game and ideally,can also kick goals. I suspect we could sign 3 nrl players as part of this assuming Mago, Cust and Miski depart leaving 2 from SL which is a very small pool of very average talent. A very difficult assignment for KR and IL to achieve and it may take 2 years to achieve this.
It will be very interesting to see how recruiting goes over the next few months.

I can't understand why we seem obsessed with project or second string NRL players, other clubs bring in experienced NRL players - something we are crying out for - it is so obvious especially with Cooper being out long term and there being a question mark over him returning - I hope he does but it is a serious injury at his age. Other clubs even seem to be able to find decent players in the Championship who go on to have top careers.

Looking at the recruitment we have had over many, many years from the NRL in the forwards so few have turned out to be good signings - for every decent one we have five or six duds - something is clearly wrong in the recruitment policy.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:31 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'm not entirely sure why you would object to a backrower on the bench with a prop rotation of Havard, Ellis, Cooper and Byrne? It's something we have traditionally done with a full compliment of first choice front rowers and someone who can "change a game" from the bench is usually regarded as a good thing. Why would we need to play Isa at prop? I don't understand. That 4 could comfortably cover the full 80 minutes between them without the need for anyone to do long minutes.

The rest I agree with.

I’m not against having a back rower on the bench but over recent years, injuries permitting,I think we tend to have a hooker and 3 props on the bench as we did on Friday. Havard only does long minutes when we have players missing. Peet seems to be in the SW mold of rotating props every 20 minutes

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:45 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

I’m not against having a back rower on the bench but over recent years, injuries permitting,I think we tend to have a hooker and 3 props on the bench as we did on Friday. Havard only does long minutes when we have players missing. Peet seems to be in the SW mold of rotating props every 20 minutes

I disagree. We more often have a backrower/utility than an extra prop, particularly when we're at or near full strength. I agree regarding Havard, although I'm not sure how that doesn't agree with what I said earlier regarding the effect the replacements have on prop rotation.

Re: Saints (a) : Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:53 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

I can't understand why we seem obsessed with project or second string NRL players, other clubs bring in experienced NRL players - something we are crying out for - it is so obvious especially with Cooper being out long term and there being a question mark over him returning - I hope he does but it is a serious injury at his age. Other clubs even seem to be able to find decent players in the Championship who go on to have top careers.

Looking at the recruitment we have had over many, many years from the NRL in the forwards so few have turned out to be good signings - for every decent one we have five or six duds - something is clearly wrong in the recruitment policy.

We do seem to end up with a lot of props in their early or mid-twenties. Even when we had the likes of Flower and Clubb a few years ago they were kept at the club for too long and missed so many games we were relying mostly on younger props. It seems like very few promising forwards (particularly props) reach a high level until around the age of 27/28. Below that age there are a lot of inconsistent props. If most of our forwards are in that age bracket it's hardly surprising if we have an inconsistent pack.

It's also notable that most Grand Final winning sides have contained several props over the age of 30. Experienced packs tend to be stronger packs but if we're recruiting props in their early 20's we're likely to be waiting around for them to come good.

It's not an exact science by any means. Recruiting props does seem to be difficult and a lot of teams end up signing duds. Take Warrington signing Robbie Mulhern as an example. He did seem like a promising forward at Hull KR. It didn't work out at Wire and they let him leave. He's now on fire at Leigh. There are plenty of examples of props who have moved from club to club only to become decent players in their late 20's.

We just don't seem to be able to identify good props, whether from the NRL or UK-based. Looking at our recruitment of props over the last few years it doesn't make for impressive reading:

2015
Taulima Tautai, Larne Patrick (Loan), Lee Mossop

2016
Frank-Paul Nu’uausala (June)

2017
Romain Navarrete

2018
Gabriel Hamlin

2019
Joe Bullock

2020
George Burgess, Mitch Clark, Brad Singleton

2021
None

2022
Kaide Ellis, Patrick Mago, Ramon Silva, Mike Cooper (July)

2023
None

To be fair the two best signings have probably been the most recent ones (Ellis and Cooper), though Cooper maybe doesn't count as smart recruitment given it was Wire who asked us to sign him.