Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:49 am  

[Gareth] wrote:

Id say that Hoffman was pretty close to world class but no t'other 2

I'd say to be world class you need to be one of the three best in the world at your position (so 27 world class players total), otherwise it's far too broad a phrase to actually mean anything, particularly when it gets applied to players who don't even get picked for their national team. Lockers and Roby and probably the only players in SL I'd currently refer to as 'World Class', Peacock and Morley as well when they were younger. Don't get me wrong though Hoffman was a very good player for us. I'd probably pick him in a Wigan SL dream team

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:49 pm  

In reply to the OP about the youth system holding us back.
I've just been through the club's photo gallery of the first team squad and out of the first 13 - 7 are club trained. Of the first 17 - 10 are club trained and of the full squad of 25 - 14 are club trained. Joe Burgess isn't included as his number is 32.
Not been through other clubs but perhaps not too many would beat that.
Some will be around with variances but I'll bet our youth system is providing more first team players than most others.

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:34 pm  

Father Ted wrote:

In reply to the OP about the youth system holding us back.
I've just been through the club's photo gallery of the first team squad and out of the first 13 - 7 are club trained. Of the first 17 - 10 are club trained and of the full squad of 25 - 14 are club trained. Joe Burgess isn't included as his number is 32.
Not been through other clubs but perhaps not too many would beat that.
Some will be around with variances but I'll bet our youth system is providing more first team players than most others.

By my reckoning the Rhinos just pip you
We have 8 club trained players in the first 13
We have 10 club trained players in the first 17
We have 14 club trained players in the first 25

We have also blooded numerous juniors into the first team this year too

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:23 pm  

Father Ted wrote:

In reply to the OP about the youth system holding us back.
I've just been through the club's photo gallery of the first team squad and out of the first 13 - 7 are club trained. Of the first 17 - 10 are club trained and of the full squad of 25 - 14 are club trained. Joe Burgess isn't included as his number is 32.
Not been through other clubs but perhaps not too many would beat that.
Some will be around with variances but I'll bet our youth system is providing more first team players than most others.

I make it 20 club trained players have made an app for us this season.

Burgess
Hughes
Farrell (Liam)
Goulding
Williams
Crosby
McIllorum
Lockers
Powell
Charnley
Manfredi
Thornley
Hampshire
Sutton
Tomkins (logan)
Burke
Farrell (Connor)
Wright
Murphy
Doran

Joel Tomkins will obviously become number 21 when he plays.

52% of the appearance this season for wigan have been by Wigan trained players. That is 8.84 players out of every weeks 17 that have been trained at wigan.


I am sure someone could work it out for leeds, but for me there first 17 is (against ours)

Hardaker-Bowen
Briscoe-Charnley
Watkins-Gelling
Moon-Thornley
Hall-Burgess
Sinfield-Green
Maguire-Smith
Leuluai-Taylor
Aiton-McIllorum
Peacock-Crosby
Ablett-Farrell
Delaney-Tomkins
JJB-Lockers

Bailey-Bateman
Achurch/kirke-Flower
Burrow-Clubb/Pettbourne
+A.N.Other (singleton, sutcliffe ect.)-Williams

so that would give them a very similar number of academy trained players.

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:54 pm  

We seem to invest a massive amount of faith in players from our system even when superior proven players become available.

It is great to have such a good youth system which we clearly do, but I feel we gamble on players sometimes. We I feel tend to look to the future rather than look at who is available. It is a very difficult balance to get right but I think personally we are a little too reliant on our youth.

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:57 pm  

jonh wrote:

We seem to invest a massive amount of faith in players from our system even when superior proven players become available.

It is great to have such a good youth system which we clearly do, but I feel we gamble on players sometimes. We I feel tend to look to the future rather than look at who is available. It is a very difficult balance to get right but I think personally we are a little too reliant on our youth.

==roundpeg21)youth as you put it is the future of this great game of ours.keeping them is the difficulty when we get them up to speed. All young players sadly don't make the grade and you have to buy in a time served player to fill the specialised position .this is why I would like to see the selectors for the GB side pick our own youth filling the positions they play in their respective clubs. This is why we must be patient with our young lads.

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:03 pm  

jonh wrote:

We seem to invest a massive amount of faith in players from our system even when superior proven players become available.

It is great to have such a good youth system which we clearly do, but I feel we gamble on players sometimes. We I feel tend to look to the future rather than look at who is available. It is a very difficult balance to get right but I think personally we are a little too reliant on our youth.

I can't think of too many players that have come in to superleague or moved within superleague over these past few seasons where I think 'damn we've missed out there'. An obvious one was maybe we should have made a play for Joel Moon to replace Carmont as already pointed out but there aren't a great deal more.

Also whilst we do put a lot of faith in our youth system we haven't blindly backed it and brought nobody in from outside. Last off season we brought in Pettybourne and Clubb for example to replace Mossop and Hansen. If we were massively stubborn we could have given those places to Rhodri Lloyd and Greenwood. The same could have been said with Bowen and Hampshire/Tierney or Bateman and Connor Farrell/Rob Lever.

We've had the balance about right IMO and they need to try and keep it about right which is filling gaps in our production line with quality players from outside or as we've done sign experienced players up on short term deals to fill positions until exceptional young players are developed enough to take their spots.

[DaveO]

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:10 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

1- I'd hate to see a day come where we close up shop and don't go for the big names. I'm 100% sure that some of our fans would like this but for me watching guys like Inga, Offiah, Renouf, Lam, Dallas, Hoffma, Piggy etc is an equal part of what makes our club great.

Always has been in the past. Wigan as a club have always had an attitude of it doesn't matter where you come from if you are are yop rl player. I would not like to see it change and it doesn't make much commercial sense anyway because like it or not big names put bums on seats and this is what advertisers and sponsors want to see never mind the fans.

2- I don't think playeys should be developed in our first team. Players, outside of injuries, should only appear in the senior side when they are 100% ready. I don't want to see guys finding thier feet at this level in the side. They should be sent on loan to get that experience like Charnley was. The WRLFC first team should a place for the best of the best.

I agree. There will always the opportunity to give debuts and the odd game to up and coming players as part of their development but it should be into a side of senior or established players.

This season injuries have forced a lot of changes to be made that may not have otherwise happened but I don't think the younger players learn much playing alongside the same other younger players as they do when back in the U19's. They need the likes of Lockers and Micky Mac to guide them round the park and help when the pressure is on.

[DaveO]

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:26 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Also whilst we do put a lot of faith in our youth system we haven't blindly backed it and brought nobody in from outside. Last off season we brought in Pettybourne and Clubb for example to replace Mossop and Hansen. If we were massively stubborn we could have given those places to Rhodri Lloyd and Greenwood. The same could have been said with Bowen and Hampshire/Tierney or Bateman and Connor Farrell/Rob Lever.

In recent seasons we have signed (off the top of my head) the following players who regularly feature in the 1st team if not injured Smith, Green, Taylor, James, Clubb, Sarginson, Bowen, Bateman, Eddie P, Flower and Dudson.

We also have Gelling who was not a Wigan junior who also gets in the team.

I will ignore Lauaki and Powell as they are no longer here.

That is 12 players and it wouldn't surprise me if on several occasions this season we have put put sides where the majority of the 17 were players we bought in, not products of the youth system.

So while some products of the youth system catch the eye, such as Burgess we routinely rely in players bought in some of which are pretty average to provide the backbone of the side. Of that list I would say only three would be the envy of other clubs, Taylor, Bateman and Bowen.

To me that says our youth system can't supply the majority of the team even to the extent we sign some average players who hold down 1st team slots and we also sign young players such as Gelling, Sarginson and Bateman.

Re: Our youth system, does it hold us back? : Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:53 am  

DaveO wrote:

In recent seasons we have signed (off the top of my head) the following players who regularly feature in the 1st team if not injured Smith, Green, Taylor, James, Clubb, Sarginson, Bowen, Bateman, Eddie P, Flower and Dudson.

We also have Gelling who was not a Wigan junior who also gets in the team.

I will ignore Lauaki and Powell as they are no longer here.

That is 12 players and it wouldn't surprise me if on several occasions this season we have put put sides where the majority of the 17 were players we bought in, not products of the youth system.

So while some products of the youth system catch the eye, such as Burgess we routinely rely in players bought in some of which are pretty average to provide the backbone of the side. Of that list I would say only three would be the envy of other clubs, Taylor, Bateman and Bowen. To me that says our youth system can't supply the majority of the team even to the extent we sign some average players who hold down 1st team slots and we also sign young players such as Gelling, Sarginson and Bateman.

I think you are missing Matty Smith and Blake Green from your list here.

Both were good enough to win us the double and play pretty significant roles. They would get in most Super League sides quite easily. Green has just been signed as a starter for Melbourne, and I would have thought that Craig Bellamy is a good judge of a player. We haven't half missed him since his injury.

Smith has improved out of all recognition these past two years. Mentioning him as the best scrum half in Super League might be saying something about the overall standard of the competition and that may be true but that is a seperate argument. He made the dream team last season and this year only Walsh is better.

You might also add Flower to your list, again he would get into most sides.

They were all excellent signings. And the jury is still out on Pettybourne, Clubb and Sarginson. So overall the club have bought well recently. Only Dudson and James have struggled really.