Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:55 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Pressure for me. Cas got a couple of lucky bounces early doors and from that point we were bailing out and getting nowhere. The attitude was poor tonight but the players are being bashed senseless. Our backs are doing the donkey work that our props seem incapable or unwilling to do and look spent when they get the ball.

There looks to be three or four holes in the team to me that's having a knock on effect.

I thought pre season that we lack at least 2 props ( one if Mossop proves himself) and our centres are poor.
I would play Sarginson at fullback but lack of other centres means that we won't see that this season.
SW has got to get to basics and stick where possible with a starting 13.
From what I heard on the radio he needs a very serious chat with Farrell.
I don't rate Bowen at all and your earlier comments reinforce my view that I would not play him again this season. His defensive capabilities are non existent.
I would give Williams and Hampshire an extended run at 6&7 but I know that won't happen.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:00 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

I thought pre season that we lack at least 2 props ( one if Mossop proves himself) and our centres are poor.
I would play Sarginson at fullback but lack of other centres means that we won't see that this season.
SW has got to get to basics and stick where possible with a starting 13.
From what I heard on the radio he needs a very serious chat with Farrell.
I don't rate Bowen at all and your earlier comments reinforce my view that I would not play him again this season. His defensive capabilities are non existent.
I would give Williams and Hampshire an extended run at 6&7 but I know that won't happen.

I've never seen a player do what Bowen did tonight not even in 2005 or 2006.

We're a bit stuck at the moment without Lockers or Thornley. If one of those two were available I'd say move Sarginson to fullback but I don't think we can. I'd certainly be putting Hampshire in next week and Williams should be back at 6. That was a poor move from Wane tonight moving him to the bench. He's done nothing wrong and has been far better then Smith. That could knock his confidence.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:00 pm  

Bowen for me can leave. Our poorest overseas signing since Doc Murray.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 pm  

As an outsider, where you've gone wrong is in a lack of attention to player retention and as a result your turnover has been so high that you've got a team full of kids and strangers.

OK, there might not have been too much that could have been done to keep Sam Tomkins from the NRL, but if you look at the likes of Green, Leuluai, Richards, Burgess next year, Joel Tomkins when he went to RU... do you think Joel Moon doesn't have suitors in the NRL? Justin Carney? Do you think the RU haven't tapped up Watkins? The difference is that Wane doesn't seem to have created a club where players are happy to stay - a good environment for senior pros to work and develop - even in the face of other offers. Just saying "We're Wigan. We're ancient and loyal" isn't enough. And if you churn over 6 players a year and replace half of them with kids, however talented, then you're going to struggle.

Last year you had two class players - Green and O'Loughlin - who covered up a lot of holes from the previous churn (plus the league was very weak), but this year one of them's gone and the other will play one game in three...

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:03 pm  

MattyB wrote:

Bowen for me can leave. Our poorest overseas signing since Doc Murray.

Yep...should never play for Wigan again.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:04 pm  

MattyB wrote:

Bowen for me can leave. Our poorest overseas signing since Doc Murray.

I'd consider paying him up after tonight (working out some sort of package). He is here for a pension, there's no point kidding ourselves! We haven't let somebody take us for a ride like this for years but this guy is.

He appalled me tonight when Cas scored that last try.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:07 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I've never seen a player do what Bowen did tonight not even in 2005 or 2006.

We're a bit stuck at the moment without Lockers or Thornley. If one of those two were available I'd say move Sarginson to fullback but I don't think we can. I'd certainly be putting Hampshire in next week and Williams should be back at 6. That was a poor move from Wane tonight moving him to the bench. He's done nothing wrong and has been far better then Smith. That could knock his confidence.

Wiliams has got play 7 and Hampshire 6.
SW has got give Williams a run of matches. Like you say he's done nothing wrong and SW gave him a starting number so he should at least give the guy 5 or 6 consecutive matches to prove himself.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:10 pm  

craigizzard wrote:

As an outsider, where you've gone wrong is in a lack of attention to player retention and as a result your turnover has been so high that you've got a team full of kids and strangers.

OK, there might not have been too much that could have been done to keep Sam Tomkins from the NRL, but if you look at the likes of Green, Leuluai, Richards, Burgess next year, Joel Tomkins when he went to RU... do you think Joel Moon doesn't have suitors in the NRL? Justin Carney? Do you think the RU haven't tapped up Watkins? The difference is that Wane doesn't seem to have created a club where players are happy to stay - a good environment for senior pros to work and develop - even in the face of other offers. Just saying "We're Wigan. We're ancient and loyal" isn't enough. And if you churn over 6 players a year and replace half of them with kids, however talented, then you're going to struggle.

Last year you had two class players - Green and O'Loughlin - who covered up a lot of holes from the previous churn (plus the league was very weak), but this year one of them's gone and the other will play one game in three...

Where does it come from that it's Wanes fault? And the atmosphere he's created drives these guys away?

It's cash! Plain and simple!! Leeds keep their players because they're paid what they're worth. I'm not throwing salary cap muck at Leeds here but in truth they're probably paying players 'slightly more' then the rest but if they can afford it then why not.

Don't kid yourself players leave Wigan due to the 'atmosphere' and stay at Leeds for the love. Go and watch a DVD of the magic weekend last year if you think those Wigan lads are unhappy under Wanes methods.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:17 pm  

In terms of Wigans performances, I think they dropped when ST left. His absence in the backline can't be underestimated as he was the perfect player coming in on the arc. Wigans attacking structure created space on the edges and who else would you want capitalising on that? Josh Charnley scored a lot of tries off the back of his work.

I also think it is a mistake not playing Hampshire at 6. The kid is a future superstar but not at full back where he is left exposed.

Your dominance a few years back came from an uncompromising pack, controlling halves and a star player exploiting the space that the first 2 had made. Whilst the squad isn't vastly weaker, I think all those areas have lost a bit of potency.

Re: When did it start to go wrong? : Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:18 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Where does it come from that it's Wanes fault? And the atmosphere he's created drives these guys away?

It's cash! Plain and simple!! Leeds keep their players because they're paid what they're worth. I'm not throwing salary cap muck at Leeds here but in truth they're probably paying players 'slightly more' then the rest but if they can afford it then why not.

Don't kid yourself players leave Wigan due to the 'atmosphere' and stay at Leeds for the love. Go and watch a DVD of the magic weekend last year if you think those Wigan lads are unhappy under Wanes methods.

Well, if that's true, and if reports of the offer to Joe Burgess are true, then Wigan are managing the cap really badly (Bowen's wage, a million middling props).

I don't think there's any salary cap muck to throw at Leeds. Hall stays for less than he'd get in the NRL because he's happy at the club. Maybe he's just a homebody and that's lucky for us, but maybe there's something about what Leeds offer in player welfare/development/education too.

DVD of Magic Weekend? Pro sportsmen desperately want to win the game they're playing in shock. That doesn't show anything positive or negative about their general employment at Wigan.