Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:05 am  

Some harsh and unfair criticism of Hampshire here. All young players need game time to develop experience and work out how to play against better opposition. He will get that at full back or at stand off.

He'll also make mistakes in either position.

Wane has shown faith in him by playing over a number of games. I dread to think what would have happened if some of the posters here coached young kids.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:59 am  

sergeant pepper wrote:

No difference as they are given the freedom to play if they think 'its on'.

What I will say is it's very dependeny on the players. Did Green play the same game as Smith last season? They obviously didn't so that means you need different styles for your half back combo.

If Smith is to start every game (which he's done for 24+ months) then you need to pair him with a naturally attacking option. Hampshire, imo, is more attack minded than Williams so why didn't he get the first chance?

Wane seems to put stock in everything apart from natural flair.

There's no difference, in fact they might as well rename the positions as the game as evolved when playing with split backs. I still find it amazing that people think there's a difference between the 6 and 7, they should be called something like left half back and right half back, or left and right pivot. It's like when people think Crosby is playing a different game when he's named as '13' rather than 8 or 10, or the centres being called centres when they play one in from the edge.

Green and Smith offered something different as they are differently players, don't know how Williams can be a great 7 and lesser 6 when it's the same position in the way we play.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:13 am  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Green and Smith offered something different as they are differently players, don't know how Williams can be a great 7 and lesser 6 when it's the same position in the way we play.

Because he has to do more when he plays with Smith. You speak as if Smith and Williams don't link up at all. Williams would have been more comfortable playing alongside Green than he has been with Smith.

Instead of positions think about it as roles. Someone had to come in this year and take over the Green role (main attacking pivot) Hampshire for me was more suited to that.

Williams, imo, has the potential to be a better version of Smith but will still need, as Smith does, a 'Green' outside him.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:20 am  

Big Steve wrote:

Some harsh and unfair criticism of Hampshire here. All young players need game time to develop experience and work out how to play against better opposition. He will get that at full back or at stand off.

He'll also make mistakes in either position.

Wane has shown faith in him by playing over a number of games. I dread to think what would have happened if some of the posters here coached young kids.

Where's the harsh criticism? I started the ball rolling, giving my opinion that he's mediocre atm and asking where the large amounts of unstinting praise have come from. I asked for reasonable debate and IMO that is what has been delivered by most contributors. I'm sure all of us want him to become the superstar some on here think he's destined to be but he ain't there yet, even by Rogue's own admission and he seems to watch these kids more than anyone.
My opinion is that Burgess, Manfredi and now Williams are currently bringing more to the team and, given that he has had more hype than any of them, I wanted to discuss him as a player. If you think some are being hard on him, what do you think of the poster on the Sam thread who said he didn't want Sam back if it meant Hampshire had to leave? It's that level of praise, admittedly a one off, that's out of order based on what I have seen of him so far.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:33 am  

sergeant pepper wrote:

Because he has to do more when he plays with Smith. You speak as if Smith and Williams don't link up at all. Williams would have been more comfortable playing alongside Green than he has been with Smith.

Instead of positions think about it as roles. Someone had to come in this year and take over the Green role (main attacking pivot) Hampshire for me was more suited to that.

Williams, imo, has the potential to be a better version of Smith but will still need, as Smith does, a 'Green' outside him.

They only link up when moving the ball across the play from left to right or vice versa. Long gone are the days of Edwards linking up playing off Greg. Green was not the main attacking pivot, he was the first receiver ball player on one side of the pitch with the FB linking in as the second receiver further wide.

I think you're looking at skill sets, i.e. thinking Williams is too similar to Smith. My comment was referring to you stating Williams was a good 7 and not a good 6, when they're the same position. It's not always the man who wears 6 who's has more of a running game, i.e. Johnson a 7 at NZW, Benji at SGI, 6 plays one side, 7; the other. That's the only difference.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:12 am  

sergeant pepper wrote:

Because he has to do more when he plays with Smith. You speak as if Smith and Williams don't link up at all. Williams would have been more comfortable playing alongside Green than he has been with Smith.

Instead of positions think about it as roles. Someone had to come in this year and take over the Green role (main attacking pivot) Hampshire for me was more suited to that.

Williams, imo, has the potential to be a better version of Smith but will still need, as Smith does, a 'Green' outside him.

As Last Son of Wigan says, it's not about who is 6 or 7 as they are expected to play left side and right side - acting as first or second receiver depending on which side of the pitch they play on.

Obviously the partnership is still important though. You still can't stick any two halves in a team and expect them to perform well. In that case it's still isn't an issue with who is playing 6 and who is playing 7 and someone being out of position, it's just whether the two halves compliment each other well.
With split halves players also sometimes show themselves to be much stronger on one side of the pitch than the other which also has to be considered. Paul Deacon played a few games on the right for us under Maguire but our right side attack was stifled because his passing from left to right was poor. Our left side was much more effective and it didn't matter too much because we attacked mostly from right to left anyway.

We don't miss Green's running game with Williams in the halves because he's the closest we have to Green in that respect. Williams has already shown some good running rugby and will only improve. Green used to like taking on a half gap and looking for an offload, which is something Williams does brilliantly. Hampshire has always been a better ball player though, so he has a passing game that is closer to Green's, but he lacks the physical aspect needed to play how Green did. That isn't to say Williams has a bad passing game - his assist for Burgess on Thursday shows that he's got the skills, he just needs to be more consistent and that should come with time.

Both Hampshire and Williams have their strengths and weaknesses and it's just a case of trying to give one of them the consistency that a young half needs to improve. Williams has shown some steady improvement which is very good. Hampshire is also a talented player but I think his lack of physicality will make Wane wary of playing him week after week in the halves, which is what is required. Williams is a tough player and one of the best defenders I've seen for his size, age and the position he plays. That toughness is important and will be one of the reasons why Wane was more comfortable to pick him as first choice. Hampshire suffered a dislocated shoulder last season and gets a bit of a battering at times when tackled. I can understand Wane being cautious and thinking fullback might be a better place for him to play right now.

Powell shouldn't be forgotten too. He's a very talented player and a good passer who seems capable of playing both right and left side. I think he's more effective on the right hand side though and that's raises the issue of him not being good enough to replace Smith. I think he's a much better passer but his kicking game really lets him down. It's the kicking game that Smith possesses which makes him almost irreplaceable at the moment. Powell lacks pace too and his reluctance to take the line on would put more pressure on Smith, who can do that, but it's not his natural game. I think the problem with Powell is that giving him consistency in the halves might mean we lose either Hampshire or Williams and I think both have far more potential. Still he's only 22 so I can see why he's been given a new contract as he had so much potential as a teenager.

Re: Hampshire : Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:50 pm  

jinkin jimmy wrote:

Where's the harsh criticism? I started the ball rolling, giving my opinion that he's mediocre atm and asking where the large amounts of unstinting praise have come from. I asked for reasonable debate and IMO that is what has been delivered by most contributors. I'm sure all of us want him to become the superstar some on here think he's destined to be but he ain't there yet, even by Rogue's own admission and he seems to watch these kids more than anyone.
My opinion is that Burgess, Manfredi and now Williams are currently bringing more to the team and, given that he has had more hype than any of them, I wanted to discuss him as a player. If you think some are being hard on him, what do you think of the poster on the Sam thread who said he didn't want Sam back if it meant Hampshire had to leave? It's that level of praise, admittedly a one off, that's out of order based on what I have seen of him so far.

It's not the players fault some fans are hyping him up too soon.

Rocky missed a large part of last season through injury and didn't get the game time some of the others did. He looks a skilfully player with pace and the right attitude - pretty impressive attributes.

How he applies those skills and attributes will develop as he gains more experience - just as his peers have had more experience to date and look better for it I'm sure he will to towards the back end of the season.

Re: Hampshire : Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:32 am  

Looking ahead to next season, I can't see Hampshire hanging around waiting for an injury. With Smith and Williams having a full season behind them in the halves and Tomkins back at 1, he surely is likely to be on the move.

Re: Hampshire : Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:33 am  

Big Steve wrote:

It's not the players fault some fans are hyping him up too soon.

Rocky missed a large part of last season through injury and didn't get the game time some of the others did. He looks a skilfully player with pace and the right attitude - pretty impressive attributes.

How he applies those skills and attributes will develop as he gains more experience - just as his peers have had more experience to date and look better for it I'm sure he will to towards the back end of the season.

Well, you're right in that he isn't hyping himself up and it can't be said he wasn't injured. It may just be that events conspire against him, who knows?

Re: Hampshire : Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:12 pm  

We have lost better youngsters