Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:18 pm  

Surely he’s a direct replacement for Thornley who we can’t seem to get on the field for longer than 2 mins anyway.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

And what if another club comes in and gets roughly the same deal Wigan are getting now?
Do you honestly think Wire would just leave him rotting for 2 years?

Maybe, just maybe, Wigan have spotted an opportunity and fancy/rate him as a player?

So you don't have any reservations about the signing at all? Or are we doing that thing of "thou shall not doubt the club"?

I'll say it as I see it - I could maybe get my head around it being a permanent deal I.e a year to "fix him" and then see some fruits of that effort. At the min it seems stacked in the favour of Wire.

To answer your 1st question - I'd much prefer that someone else did get him tbh, good deal or not. Outside of Saints, and possibly Leeds, I don't think there's another team with the potential to mold King the way we could. We'll make him a much better player - of that I'm sure. Who benefits long term from that tho? Is it a sound decision in the long term.

I mean we're talking about getting a player firing (Peet's words) and then sending back him back a better player to one of our biggest rivals. Would Saints take one of our guys, build him up, at the expense of one of their own, and then send him back?

You also talk about the club seeing something in him as a player, well they certainly saw something in him 3 months ago when they purposely kept sending Thornley and Field at him.

I don't think the above is negativity for the sake of it. I'd say some of the points are valuable questions to ask on a forum.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:32 pm  

DannyT wrote:

Surely he’s a direct replacement for Thornley who we can’t seem to get on the field for longer than 2 mins anyway.

In those 2 minutes Toby King managed to make thornley look like a prime Mal Meninga!

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:47 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

So you don't have any reservations about the signing at all? Or are we doing that thing or "thou shall not doubt the club"?

I'll say it as I see it - I could maybe get my head around it being a permanent deal I.e a year to "fix him" and then see some fruits of that effort. At the min it seems stacked in the favour of Wire.

To answer your 1st question - I'd much prefer that someone else did get him tbh, good deal or not. Outside of Saints, and possibly Leeds, I don't think there's another team with the potential to mold King the way we could. We'll make him a much better player - of that I'm sure. Who benefits long term from that tho? Is it a sound decision in the long term.

I mean we're talking about getting a player firing (Peet's words) and then sending back him back a better player to one of our biggest rivals. Would Saints take one of our guys, build him up, at the expense of one of their own, and then send him back?

You also talk about the club seeing something in him as a player, well they certainly saw something in him 3 months ago when they purposely kept sending Thornley and Field at him.

I don't think the above is negativity for the sake of it. I'd say some of the points are valuable questions to ask on a forum.

If Wigan sign him on a permanent deal there is a question of possible transfer fee (or Wire may negate that just to get him off the books) and definitely paying his full contract amount.

This gives Wigan the flexibility of working with the player on a reduced wage with no commitment if things don't work out as they hoped, or, in Pole position if they did.
He will not go back to Wire no matter what unless BIG changes happen at Wire, its not like were going to turn him into Gene Miles and then gift wrap him back to Wire no questions with a 100% guarantee that suddenly he's going to turn Wire into a championship winning team
There'll be ongoing discussions through the next 12 months to decide where he'll ne going 2024 with him, his agent, Wire and Wigan and a number of other clubs.

I just can't get my head around anyone thinking this somehow improves Wire, it smacks of desperation on their part and they're backed into a corner with one of their highest earners.

Anyone can express their view that he's a terrible or a great player.
Anyone can express their opinion that it will be a good or bad deal

I just don't see how once again someone can complain about their view being questioned whilst saying they should be allowed to express their opinion.

No one is stopping you, go ahead, but don't make out that anyone defending or someone with a different opinion is stopping you from having your own.

FWIW

Whilst at Wire 2020/21 and then subsequently throughout the time his future was up in the air early 2021 I wouldn't have rated him more than maybe a 7 or 7.5 out of 10 player, and he was after 9/10 type wages
Nothing since has changed my view
Hes been in a poor environment though imo and maybe 6months at Hudds, and a pre season at Wigan we can maybe get an 8/10 player or more whilst only paying a proportion of that wage?

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:55 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

So you don't have any reservations about the signing at all? Or are we doing that thing of "thou shall not doubt the club"?

I'll say it as I see it - I could maybe get my head around it being a permanent deal I.e a year to "fix him" and then see some fruits of that effort. At the min it seems stacked in the favour of Wire.

To answer your 1st question - I'd much prefer that someone else did get him tbh, good deal or not. Outside of Saints, and possibly Leeds, I don't think there's another team with the potential to mold King the way we could. We'll make him a much better player - of that I'm sure. Who benefits long term from that tho? Is it a sound decision in the long term.

I mean we're talking about getting a player firing (Peet's words) and then sending back him back a better player to one of our biggest rivals. Would Saints take one of our guys, build him up, at the expense of one of their own, and then send him back?

You also talk about the club seeing something in him as a player, well they certainly saw something in him 3 months ago when they purposely kept sending Thornley and Field at him.

I don't think the above is negativity for the sake of it. I'd say some of the points are valuable questions to ask on a forum.

King won’t play for Powell.

Let’s not forget how good King has been up until recently at Wire, and is playing well at Hudds.

If Powell gets binned next year I’ve no doubt King will be back at Wire in 24 to see out his contract.

I think this is a fantastic signing personally unless things have changed in the last week or so Wardle and King are our starting centres for next season.

That is a huge improvement on anything we have had for a long time.

It’s all well and good saying we could let him stay at Wire to eat up their cap but there would be others coming in for him so that would never happen.

He is a top notch young British centre.

Only downside for me is it probably means one of Bevan or KPP possibly both will be in the NRL in 23. I just can’t see how we can manage all those players under the cap unless we have got King for an absolute steal.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:09 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I just don't see how once again someone can complain about their view being questioned whilst saying they should be allowed to express their opinion.

No one is stopping you, go ahead, but don't make out that anyone defending or someone with a different opinion is stopping you from having your own.

FWIW

Whilst at Wire 2020/21 and then subsequently throughout the time his future was up in the air early 2021 I wouldn't have rated him more than maybe a 7 or 7.5 out of 10 player, and he was after 9/10 type wages
Nothing since has changed my view
Hes been in a poor environment though imo and maybe 6months at Hudds, and a pre season at Wigan we can maybe get an 8/10 player or more whilst only paying a proportion of that wage?

I have zero issues with opinions that differ from my own. In fact, I actually enjoy a good debate. As an example, I like & respect your logic on the last bit of your post. I'm still not 100% convinced on the signing and I do think it benefits Wire long term, but that's just differing opinions, of which you make some sound ones.

What I'm taking umbrage about is the position of shooting down opinions without any alternatives, or reason being put forward (not always you btw). The default position of "maybe the club know what they are doing", or "who are we to judge", "IL is a business man, he knows best" etc grate my gears tbh. It's simplistic and quite frankly worrying that people just automatically fall on the side of the club.

I'll always take the opinion that - If you agree with a decision the club makes, then say why you agree with it (like you have done here), who knows you might win someone over with your argument etc. Just saying you agree with it because the club does isn't a debate, it's borderline fundamentalism.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:25 pm  

A good signing.
If King and Wardle are our centres next year I'll be very happy.
As for the loan and finances. It is obvious that Powell doesn't want him at Wire, no doubt King equally doesn't want to be at the HJ either.
Our assumption that Wire are paying part of King's salary could well be right given the reputed size of his deal.
If King is successful at Wigan I can't see him wanting out.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:32 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

I have zero issues with opinions that differ from my own. In fact, I actually enjoy a good debate. As an example, I like & respect your logic on the last bit of your post. I'm still not 100% convinced on the signing and I do think it benefits Wire long term, but that's just differing opinions, of which you make some sound ones.

What I'm taking umbrage about is the position of shooting down opinions without any alternatives, or reason being put forward (not always you btw). The default position of "maybe the club know what they are doing", or "who are we to judge", "IL is a business man, he knows best" etc grate my gears tbh. It's simplistic and quite frankly worrying that people just automatically fall on the side of the club.

I'll always take the opinion that - If you agree with a decision the club makes, then say why you agree with it (like you have done here), who knows you might win someone over with your argument etc. Just saying you agree with it because the club does isn't a debate, it's borderline fundamentalism.

Not disagreeing

But on the but in bold

End if the day we are all agreeing/disagreeing with others with maybe 10/20% of the overall k lnowledge of most subjects, on usually topics that that have subjective answers and there is on right/wrong answer.

I knew about the King deal this time last week
Did it blow.me away, no, do I see the merits based on the info I do know, Yeah, I'm OK with it.

But at the end of the day nothing we think etc changes much, we can discuss, and personally I hop I do in most instances try and explain myself

The last 10months or so have Been a breathe of fresh air, and I trust that the whole backroom team have done their due diligence, the club have worked the finances out so as to get the best bang for their buck to suit the whole squad and to be honest I think we have to trust them given the advances made this season.

If this was the final piece of a jigsaw I wouldn't be overjoyed
I believe that it isn't and if the Wardle deal is done (whichbi have been told it has and no reason to believe otherwise) I'd be over the moon, even if French is going (which I am realistic about, but not without hope the ub may be able to pull that off).

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:43 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

If Wigan sign him on a permanent deal there is a question of possible transfer fee (or Wire may negate that just to get him off the books) and definitely paying his full contract amount.

This gives Wigan the flexibility of working with the player on a reduced wage with no commitment if things don't work out as they hoped, or, in Pole position if they did.
He will not go back to Wire no matter what unless BIG changes happen at Wire, its not like were going to turn him into Gene Miles and then gift wrap him back to Wire no questions with a 100% guarantee that suddenly he's going to turn Wire into a championship winning team
There'll be ongoing discussions through the next 12 months to decide where he'll ne going 2024 with him, his agent, Wire and Wigan and a number of other clubs.

I just can't get my head around anyone thinking this somehow improves Wire, it smacks of desperation on their part and they're backed into a corner with one of their highest earners.

Anyone can express their view that he's a terrible or a great player.
Anyone can express their opinion that it will be a good or bad deal

I just don't see how once again someone can complain about their view being questioned whilst saying they should be allowed to express their opinion.

No one is stopping you, go ahead, but don't make out that anyone defending or someone with a different opinion is stopping you from having your own.

FWIW

Whilst at Wire 2020/21 and then subsequently throughout the time his future was up in the air early 2021 I wouldn't have rated him more than maybe a 7 or 7.5 out of 10 player, and he was after 9/10 type wages
Nothing since has changed my view
Hes been in a poor environment though imo and maybe 6months at Hudds, and a pre season at Wigan we can maybe get an 8/10 player or more whilst only paying a proportion of that wage?

Agree with all this. Somebody mentioned it to me on the Wire board last week and i said i think there is a good player in there but i wouldn't want him here but................. if he comes with Wardle (and iv'e noted your confidence that is a done deal) im more than happy with that. Wardle and King is better than Wardle and Isa. If our coaching staff can't get anything out of King, we lose nothing and he goes back to Warrington. If he wants to be a winner then he has to kuckle down. I am also happy that we will be seemingly phasing KPP out if he is leaving anyway. Why should we improve players for nowt so that Newcastle knights can come and just take them fully developed. Have a feeling KPP will be let go early. Please, please, please just tie French down. that would do me. If 2 centres and French re-signing is all we do i will be happy.

Re: Toby King 2023 : Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:44 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Not disagreeing

But on the but in bold

End if the day we are all agreeing/disagreeing with others with maybe 10/20% of the overall knowledge of most subjects, on usually topics that that have subjective answers and there is on right/wrong answer.

I knew about the King deal this time last week
Did it blow.me away, no, do I see the merits based on the info I do know, Yeah, I'm OK with it.

But at the end of the day nothing we think etc changes much, we can discuss, and personally I hop I do in most instances try and explain myself

The last 10months or so have Been a breathe of fresh air, and I trust that the whole backroom team have done their due diligence, the club have worked the finances out so as to get the best bang for their buck to suit the whole squad and to be honest I think we have to trust them given the advances made this season.

If this was the final piece of a jigsaw I wouldn't be overjoyed
I believe that it isn't and if the Wardle deal is done (whichbi have been told it has and no reason to believe otherwise) I'd be over the moon, even if French is going (which I am realistic about, but not without hope the ub may be able to pull that off).

I can get onboard, or at least see your perspective, as it's reasonable and rational. Like you said there's no right, or wrong opinion. I'd actually have preferred him on a proper deal Vs a loan, but your OP raised valid arguments as to why that ain't possible, or the best option.

Btw, as it's on the same kinda subject and one to highlight the wider issue I was making... i've just read the other sites opinions on the signing. I'm not the biggest fan of King, but hopefully I've put forward reasons as to why I think what I do. On there it's just baseless stuff like "on the cheap", or "not Wigan standard" without any rationale behind those opinions. That's what gets at me.