Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:19 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

You mention Sinfield as one who didn't make an impact at international level but he was picked out by the great Wally Lewis as one to build the England team around. More importantly he got his chance despite perceived weaknesses particularly around his build and lack of pace. Marshy has been the best winger this year. I doubt any reasonable judge would argue against that. In fact he has outscored Tom Johnstone by more than 2 tries to 1! Now I'm not arguing against Johnstone being picked; far from it. I'm just saying any team "picked on form" would include the best winger in the comp, and that's currently Marshall.

Obviously, then, it isn't a team picked on form which then becomes an entirely separate discussion.

Best winger in attack...

But what about his defence? How has he been under the high ball?

Wane will need to consider all of these things and Jon outlined it perfectly when looking at the sheer size, speed and athleticism of the Aussie backline - This is what you're up against and its a different kettle of fish to super league.

Englands most successful wingers in recent memory are Makinson, Hall and McGillvary - Take a look at their body type and style of play compared to Marshalls and you can start to understand.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:34 pm  

If I’m picking my best backline at the moment I think it pretty much picks itself -

1. Welsby
2. Young
3. Farnworth
4. Wardle
5. TJ
6. Williams
7. Smith

It’s maybe as strong and well balanced a backline as we have potentially had for a good few years.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:38 pm  

jonh wrote:

I think on form he or Miski are probably the most effective wingers in SL.

I do think he deserves a cap and hope he gets one, Wane though is building towards a World Cup and this is a vital game in the prep for that then building again during the series against Samoa, if he isn’t part of those plans he shouldn’t be given a run in this test.

He did a lot of kick returns and carries as he always does probably more, did he get us out of trouble though? I’d say not as we were hardly out of our 40 metre are for long periods of the game.

Mackinson not been selected and isn’t the athlete he was so not sure how that’s relevant age is catching up with him.

In regards SL we put a hefty offer in for TJ before he moved to Catalans and I believe made enquiries again this year so he’s definitely rated by the club and coaches.

Makinson is injured hence not selected.
Miski also didnt get us out of the 40 against Penrith and he is the form winger as is Marshall I think it was the opposition that stopped the 2 form wingers not getting out the 40 (would TJ do better,who knows).
TJ is a quality winger no doubt,I would still have Marshall above him.
Anyway until Marshall gets a chance we will never know.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:40 pm  

jonh wrote:

If I’m picking my best backline at the moment I think it pretty much picks itself -

1. Welsby
2. Young
3. Farnworth
4. Wardle
5. TJ
6. Williams
7. Smith

It’s maybe as strong and well balanced a backline as we have potentially had for a good few years.

Change TJ for Marshall I would agree

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:42 pm  

nathan_rugby wrote:

Best winger in attack...

But what about his defence? How has he been under the high ball?

Wane will need to consider all of these things and Jon outlined it perfectly when looking at the sheer size, speed and athleticism of the Aussie backline - This is what you're up against and its a different kettle of fish to super league.

Englands most successful wingers in recent memory are Makinson, Hall and McGillvary - Take a look at their body type and style of play compared to Marshalls and you can start to understand.

His defense has been outstanding! I'm not sure why you would even make that comment?

He's been better against these bigger, more athletic backs in Superleague than these bigger, more athletic backs have been against each other. He's outperformed the incumbents every single time he's come up against them, literally without exception. Plus he did the same against the bigger, more athletic backs playing for Penrith. What further credentials do you need?

This is exactly my point with Jon. You are generalising rather than dealing with the actual facts. Sure bigger is better as a rule but tell that to Rob Burrow, Jason Robinson, Alfie Langer, Andrew Johns and the many, many others who have made a mockery of this generalisation. Now, I'm not saying Marshy stands in that company necessarily but he's a top performer in every situation he's been placed in and risen to every challenge. He is currently the best winger in the comp and has been top 5 for a few seasons now.

I'm not saying he should be the current England winger. I'm a strong believer that a player should lose his place as much as someone else taking it and none of the current choices above him have done anything to lose their place. What I am saying is he's unlucky to not be picked if the squad is supposedly on form. I also think it's something of a missed opportunity to get another player into the mix. The Samoa tests are at the end of the year and no one can predict availability by then.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:44 pm  

Jason65 wrote:

Miski also didnt get us out of the 40 against Penrith and he is the form winger as is Marshall I think it was the opposition that stopped the 2 form wingers not getting out the 40.

I agree with this and it’s the argument I have in regards style of SL and what it takes to be successful and the different style of international rugby which I believe is why he isn’t getting picked.

In regards Mackinson I don’t see him as an England player moving forward, think the 2 selected plus Young, Ashton, Marshall and also Davies could rightfully be considered ahead of him in the pecking order now.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:51 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

His defense has been outstanding! I'm not sure why you would even make that comment?

He's been better against these bigger, more athletic backs in Superleague than these bigger, more athletic backs have been against each other. He's outperformed the incumbents every single time he's come up against them, literally without exception. Plus he did the same against the bigger, more athletic backs playing for Penrith. What further credentials do you need?

This is exactly my point with Jon. You are generalising rather than dealing with the actual facts. Sure bigger is better as a rule but tell that to Rob Burrow, Jason Robinson, Alfie Langer, Andrew Johns and the many, many others who have made a mockery of this generalisation. Now, I'm not saying Marshy stands in that company necessarily but he's a top performer in every situation he's been placed in and risen to every challenge. He is currently the best winger in the comp and has been top 5 for a few seasons now.

I'm not saying he should be the current England winger. I'm a strong believer that a player should lose his place as much as someone else taking it and none of the current choices above him have done anything to lose their place. What I am saying he's unlucky to not be picked if the squad is supposedly on form. I also think it's something of a missed opportunity to get another player into the mix. The Samoa tests are at the end of the year and no one can predict availability by then.

I’m not sure why you’re replying to someone else but referencing me as though I’ve said it……

Burrow wasn’t a great international player, Robinson was but he had the athleticism to back it up. Langer was a half playing in a different era.

It’s down to style not form his style is deemed by Wane it seems not to see him selected, same for Bennett.

Someone mentioned Jerry and Hall who were incumbent wingers. I actually think they were/are very similar to Miski and Marshall in style however they had more impact in their prime at the line mainly due to body weight. I just think Marshall lacks that extra power in contact that those too had and the natural athleticism of the others selected over him which is why he is missing out.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:54 pm  

Mark_P1973 wrote:

Was Wally missing the fact we had Scully, Faz and SoL all playing at the same time as Sinfield, and there was no way he was playing 13 over any of the other 3, hence why we tried to squash him in at either 6 or 9 for his goal kicking

Another example would be Ryan Hall. He scored tries for Leeds but was never (correct me if i am wrong) top try scorer in any season he played at Leeds, however, put him into an England / GB shirt and he was a different class altogether, he was meant to play in the big games, and suppose this is where the argument is at. Hall never topped the charts but was an international all day long, but Marshy can top the charts, but there is apprehension about him performing at that top level?

It was after his stint at 9 where, to be fair, he was excellent.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:58 pm  

jonh wrote:

I agree with this and it’s the argument I have in regards style of SL and what it takes to be successful and the different style of international rugby which I believe is why he isn’t getting picked.

In regards Mackinson I don’t see him as an England player moving forward, think the 2 selected plus Young, Ashton, Marshall and also Davies could rightfully be considered ahead of him in the pecking order now.

Makinson would have picked if he wasn't injured,but I also think he is done as a international player.

I also think Young and Marshall are a better combination than any other you care to mention.
As you was proven wrong re- Farrimond you could equally be proven wrong (or right) re-Marshy,but at this rate we will never know,am glad you think he should be given a chance to silence the doubters (like yourself) as did Farrimond.

Re: Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel : Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:59 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

It was after his stint at 9 where, to be fair, he was excellent.

He did quite well at 9 didnt he.