Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:59 pm  

Any happy clappers want to post telling us how things are all rosy at Wigan and the massive outflow of players will not be a loss to us?

Sadly it's entirely reasonable and predictable that Hock will go. The more I think about it the more I believe that the destiny of RL in this country is to become a semi-professional game. The standard of the players will be poor, the standard of the games will be poor, Sky will eventually lose interest and then it really will be game over.

We were kind of protected in the past through the self-imposed "Amateur" status of RU. The RL game in Aus/NZ was also less developed than it is now (plus the less mobile nature of the player base would have made playing in Aus a very rare option).

Now RU have woken up and smelled the coffee, and the game in Aus/NZ have got themselves organised, relatively cheap travel Down Under, players moving/living/playing there a far far less unusual occurance......


Add to this the position of chairmen who think the CC is good for the game (good for their wallets maybe, but the game?) and the future is almost certainly "not Orange" as the saying goes.....

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:32 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

As much as your first point is correct it matters little in the comparison stakes because we did have Hoffman and now we don't! We did have Joel Tomkins and now we don't and we do have Gaz Hock but won't for long and no replacement of anywhere near the same quality will be available now. A few months back Willie Manu and Gareth Ellis where available but now they're not and we'll have to go with what we've got.

As for your second point it's again correct but matter even less because Joel was 23-24 with 4 or 5 seasons rugby at the back of him when he replaced Hock in 2010. Those 2 you mention are good youngsters but they're no Hock, no Hoffman and no Joel Tomkins of 2010 yet and won't be for a good few seasons.

We need quality players in the team now not in 5 years.

They might not be quality for a few seasons, but they'll develop given chance. This idealistic desire for quality players across the park is not realistic, the standard of available players in SL is poor and we can no longer compete for imports. Like it or not the best way is to develop our own, we'll lose a few given the SC but will be better off than most. Given the number and profile of departures this off season it looks very much like a transition phase for a year or two. Why would Hock want to stick around while Green and Smith keep the halves warm until the next generation come through. Maybe it's time to give the likes of Hughes and Lloyd the opportunities and see how they go, we might be pleasantly surprised.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:42 pm  

From what I have been told there are a damn site more players than just Hock eyeing deals in Australia and Super League will be in big trouble if the salary cap does not rise. There are a number of Wigan players pondering going to Australia/NZ and I am sure this situation is replicated across Super League. Even poor SL players like Ainscough are going to Australia to play in the lower leagues there because they are getting paid more and/or because of the lifestyle.

Years of stagnation has led us to this situation and clubs cannot simply bury their heads in the sand beause it suits them, and the owners, to pay players as little as possible. Players earnings have been cut in real terms for years and if the salary cap had simply risen in line with inflation since its inception then it would be well over £2 million now. With TV money, ticket prices and attendances all dramatically up in this time it does make you wonder what is happening to all the additional money. I simply think it suits too many people in RL to keep the status quo and allows owners to have all the kudos of owning a Super League club on the cheap.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:16 pm  

giwildgo wrote:

They might not be quality for a few seasons, but they'll develop given chance. This idealistic desire for quality players across the park is not realistic, the standard of available players in SL is poor and we can no longer compete for imports. Like it or not the best way is to develop our own, we'll lose a few given the SC but will be better off than most. Given the number and profile of departures this off season it looks very much like a transition phase for a year or two. Why would Hock want to stick around while Green and Smith keep the halves warm until the next generation come through. Maybe it's time to give the likes of Hughes and Lloyd the opportunities and see how they go, we might be pleasantly surprised.

I have no issue with how good those 2 could become, they have massive potential but they're so far behind a player like Gareth Hock at the moment it's hardly worth mentioning them as a realistic replacement(and thats nothing against them as it's totally understanable).

The issue I mainly have with lads like those is that for all the potential they have I worry that they'll not quite fulfill it because of the situation we're starting to find ourselves in. Throw a lad like Rhodri Lloyd in to a Wigan side playing full of confidence with world class players like Sam Tomkins, Tommy Leuluai, Gareth Hock etc around him and he'll just be able to concentrate on doing the basics whilst building his confidence up to progress his game. Throw him in to a Wigan side stripped of it's best players playing with pressure from the stands and low on confidence and he then has huge worries, huge pressures and he won't have that bedding in period to build up his own confidence and game.

We've seen it happen in the past around 2004-2006 ish where we had some great young players like Kevin Brown and Luke Robinson coming through and they showed amazing potential but that potential was lost because they didn't have sufficient quality around them and lost players who would lead them about the place and help them improve. Their Wigan careers crashed and burned under huge expectation and pressure and it was unfair.

Those 2 players are just a quick example of what can happen. They've gone on to have decent careers but nowhere near as good a careers as they could have had and that's the problem we face now with the next batch of kids we have coming through.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm  

Famous wrote:

Even poor SL players like Ainscough are going to Australia to play in the lower leagues there because they are getting paid more and/or because of the lifestyle.

or he's such a poor player he can't get a contract in Super League? He's never been the same player since he left Wigan and lost his body mass and definition


Can somebody pull together a list of all the British Super League players who are moving to the NRL and rugby union this close season. Plenty of talk about players moving etc but Matty Russell apart I'm struggling to think of any.

I'm willing to wager £5 per player that there will be more players moving from the NRL to Super League than from SuperLeague to the NRL and Rugby Union by the start of next season. Any doom-monerers willing to take me up on the bet?

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:30 pm  

Paul Youane wrote:

or he's such a poor player he can't get a contract in Super League? He's never been the same player since he left Wigan and lost his body mass and definition


Can somebody pull together a list of all the British Super League players who are moving to the NRL and rugby union this close season. Plenty of talk about players moving etc but Matty Russell apart I'm struggling to think of any.

I'm willing to wager £5 per player that there will be more players moving from the NRL to Super League than from SuperLeague to the NRL and Rugby Union by the start of next season. Any doom-monerers willing to take me up on the bet?

We lose our best youngsters and our best experienced players and in return get their lesser players who are borderline first team/reserve grade players.

It doesn't really compare.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:41 pm  

Paul Youane wrote:

or he's such a poor player he can't get a contract in Super League? He's never been the same player since he left Wigan and lost his body mass and definition


Can somebody pull together a list of all the British Super League players who are moving to the NRL and rugby union this close season. Plenty of talk about players moving etc but Matty Russell apart I'm struggling to think of any.

I'm willing to wager £5 per player that there will be more players moving from the NRL to Super League than from SuperLeague to the NRL and Rugby Union by the start of next season. Any doom-monerers willing to take me up on the bet?

Scott Moore

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:36 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Scott Moore

Don't think that was ever confirmed was it? I hope not I don't think Super League could continue with such a loss.

The other one I have thought of is the other Burgess twin.

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:56 pm  

Paul Youane wrote:

From what I heard, at the same time as the original post, then it isn't anything to do with his old habits but the Wigan camp was/is split and was/is not a happy camp. If things are like that then you have to get rid of the "bad egg".

So Wane has lost the dressing room? That didn't take long!

Re: Hock : Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:48 pm  

[quote="Paul Youane"}]


Can somebody pull together a list of all the British Super League players who are moving to the NRL and rugby union this close season. Plenty of talk about players moving etc but Matty Russell apart I'm struggling to think of any.
[/quote]

British players are in demand from lesser tier clubs in Aus, Snitch of Cas , Petersen and Sheriff of Hull KR , Ainscough, Mitchell of Warrington and a few others are trying their luck down under to add to the half dozen in the top flight NRL ( a number that is only going to increase , maybe starting with Mr Hock)

The league would only be strengthened massively by having such as Burgess x4 , Graham , Widdop , Eastmond, Tomkins playing SL rather than where they are.

Over the last couple of seasons likes of Leuluai, Finch , Lima , King , Pelo , Mcguire , Johnson , Moa , Eastwood , Berrigan, Carlaw , Buderus, Sa , Greenshields , Fa'alogo , Newton etc etc have all gone back to play in the NRL or Union , to be replaced by dross on the whole.

Add to this the fact that under the current system of operation we we will never again see top class Rugby Union players or even the promising ones like Offiah come to SL and it has sent the standard of SL one way only and it is not upwards.