Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:44 pm  

XBrettKennyX wrote:

Any happy clappers want to post telling us how things are all rosy at Wigan and the massive outflow of players will not be a loss to us?

Sadly it's entirely reasonable and predictable that Hock will go. The more I think about it the more I believe that the destiny of RL in this country is to become a semi-professional game. The standard of the players will be poor, the standard of the games will be poor, Sky will eventually lose interest and then it really will be game over.

We were kind of protected in the past through the self-imposed "Amateur" status of RU. The RL game in Aus/NZ was also less developed than it is now (plus the less mobile nature of the player base would have made playing in Aus a very rare option).

Now RU have woken up and smelled the coffee, and the game in Aus/NZ have got themselves organised, relatively cheap travel Down Under, players moving/living/playing there a far far less unusual occurance......


Add to this the position of chairmen who think the CC is good for the game (good for their wallets maybe, but the game?) and the future is almost certainly "not Orange" as the saying goes.....

...and don't forget the inexorable, unstoppable rise of football either... How many top teenage RL talents are there currently in Liverpool/Manu Utd/Latic's academy setups lost to our game forever that 15 years ago would have been in Saints'/Wigan's/Wire's U19s teams instead? How many kids walk around in St. Helens or Wigan dreaming of playing Premiership football instead of RL that would never have done so even a generation ago?

It's a bitter pill for us all to have to swallow but RL is in the process of being squeezed to death by financial forces that are way out of it's wildest dreams to ever be able to compete with. Increasing the salary cap will not be the answer - all that will do is kill off the limited competitiveness there is in SL already, limiting the global appeal of the sport still further, and send even more clubs to the wall. It could do nothing but slightly delay the departures of a few players from our game, no more. Salary cap or not Wigan could never afford to pay Sam as much as a top RU or NRL club could afford to if they wanted to for instance. We have to accept that British RL is going to likely end up a semi-professional glorified pub league...

[DaveO]

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:05 pm  

Famous wrote:

I simply think it suits too many people in RL to keep the status quo and allows owners to have all the kudos of owning a Super League club on the cheap.

I think that is a very good point. Some owner clearly don't have the financial resources themselves or business skills to generate enough revenue to take their clubs forward financially. So they vote to keep the costs down when really they should be looking for people to take over who can improve matters if they have taken the clubs as far as they can.

You only have to look at Warrington to see what happens when someone who does possess those attributes takes over.

I don't think it is just small clubs though that suffer from a kind of cheapskate view. Leeds seem to been at the forefront of various cost cutting measures in recent years such as scrapping the old A teams and what has happened with junior RL recently. I get the impression while they are clearly very comfortable paying to the cap they are more interesting in cost cutting than growth.

Even IL will tell you even if the cap was increased Wigan might not necessarily be able to pay to it. This is when it should dawn on people its very hard to run a pro sport on a sound business level alone. Clubs can only raise so much cash from ticket sales and sponsorship and simply need "free money" from the likes of Sky.

BT Vision are paying RU £152m over four years having taken the RU rights off Sky. They have said they intend to use the money (well some of it) to up their salary cap as they want their sport to be at the same financial level as championship 1 soccer in terms of what it can pay players.

Out of interest BT Vision are paying £246m per season for the rights to show 38 premiership soccer games as they launch a sports channel.

We need someone in charge of RL who can pull in such deals for us. I don't mean £246m a season obviously but if RU can get £38m a season I don't see why we ought not to be aiming for a similar figure. RL regularly outstripped RU for viewing figures on Sky. Instead we get zero pounds from Stobarts!

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:12 pm  

The financial benefits that RL once had have not only stopped they are now working against us. We used to get former Union Internationals turning to League for money. That stopped 1995/6 when Union went pro.
When SL started the £ was very advatageous against $AUD and now is it's the reverse, where NRL players looked to come over for a good salary and pension perks they no longer do so. Due to the devaluation of the £ towards the $ our best players are either going or looking to go to Australia. THe UK tax breaks have now gone.

We are now on our own as far as player recruitment goes and as mentioned are looking on unable or unwilling to take the necessary steps to make the game for finanacially beneficial for our best players.
Wigan do seem to be attracting more Union/NRL clubs looking at our players as possible recruits than other SL outfits but where we can't compete at present at least IL is able to obtain a fee for those under contract. One of SL's biggest losses was James Graham who went when OOC so Saints didn't get a penny for him. At least with Gaz Hock a fee will be payable. If not then he won't go!
The Graham sort of case must be avoided and IL does seem to be looking at it by givening out longer term contracts. Also renewing existing contracts long before they expire.

The RFL and SL Chairmen have to sort something and quickly to stop the player drain, whether this will be linked to the amendments of the salary cap, revised TV deal or other measures but something has to be done, and quickly.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:17 pm  

El Diablo wrote:

snip

I'm near certain that we will see Sam Tomkins leave in 2013. From the bizarre link up with Saracens to the numerous quotes in the press from the man to his brother leaving to his brief appearance playing RU, I say it with glum confidence that Sam Tomkins will not be playing in a Wigan RL shirt in 2014. With genuine sincerity I hope you can drag this quote up in a couple of years time and have a laugh about it as RL keeps it's flagship talent in Super League. A momentous achievement I can't see us fulfilling.

I accept that players coming and going, especially overseas recruits, is a natural part of rebuilding a squad over several years but my area of disillusionment with the game comes not from this, which I think you may have misunderstood or I didn't convey it clearly enough (probably the latter!) but from the fact as a game, not just as a club, we don't have the resources to be able to replace those players with anyone of like for like quality. Through salary cap restraints, lack of finance, more money and perhaps better lifestyles in other sports/competitions we're seeing the top players, the entertainers, of our competition leave and their replacements are nowhere near the standard of those players who have departed. Hence we see a lower quality of RL and a poorer product because of it which when purse strings are tight as a nation leaves me in my embittered state with the game.

You make the point about the lack of mass exodus to Union/NRL but it doesn't take a mass exodus to weaken our game as a result. If Gareth Hock leaves for the NRL our game is weaker as a result - why? Because Gaz is a top class player, one of the best second row forwards in the competition. He's an entertaining player, whether that's through some sublime piece of skill or an absolute brain fart - it's entertaining to watch, it gets people talking, it puts bums on seats and creates enthusiasm surrounding our game. If Sam Tomkins leaves in the next couple of years, I accept it's not an exodus it's only one player, but sadly that's all it takes to weaken our product/competition standards. How can we hope to progress as a sport in this country when the top talents in our game can be readily poached (worrying seemingly at will) by rah-rah clubs or the NRL (using Joel Tomkins and Gareth Hock as examples).

There are many other different factors which has brought on this outburst, things such as the lack of meaning in the 27 rounds until the play offs, three Super League clubs falling into administration in the last couple of years, an outdated Challenge Cup competition, poorly supported/structured international competitions, horrific refereeing standards, a Russian roulette of a disciplinary panel etc

I suppose I'll see TV figures and attendance figures thrown in my direction now, which appear very rosy and paint our game in a satisfying light for some, but for me I just can't get over these glaring issues that are facing our game at the moment.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:02 pm  

I don't think everything is rosey. However, throwing hands up in the air and saying the RFL/Chairmen need to do something does not really offer a solution.

In the end market forces dictate the money that comes into the game. There are a few sources of income TV, species, sponsors, then there is non-RL related revenue, weddings, offices etc.

Changing the Salary cap has no impact unless the revenue can increase. Unions big earner is the 6 nations, it pulls in huge amounts of cash and it's not something we can match. The TV deal is a bit of a Mystery, we pull in better figures, but get less cash???? I think the issue there is a lack of offers from TV companies outside of SKY. This has to be down to the RFL/SL sales team. How we cannot link better viewing figures to a better TV deal is beyond me unless simply in the high echelons of TV advertising we are seen as good on figures but that does not translate to adverts somehow?????

One option maybe to allow more interuption in the game. If Sky could throw 2 more ad breaks in every game bar the GF, would it make our product more TV salable? How you do that is up to the powers that be.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:46 pm  

I don't see what the big problem is here. Super League is not going to die because Gareth Hock goes to the NRL. Look at countries like France, Brazil etc in football, they have traditionally been net exporters of players because they produce so much talent, those players naturally want to go overseas to spend parts of their careers in different leagues and improve their experience.

The big problem British RL has is Aussies don't take us seriously, they think we are crap. When guys like Morley, Ellis etc go over there and prove themselves they win the Aussies' respect as individuals but there aren't enough of them to change perceptions of British RL in general. But if we start exporting players more regularly and they do well we will start being taken credibly and the national team will be stronger for it.

Look at the Kiwis, how many of their players play in the NZ Bartercard competition - they are all exports to the NRL or SL.

This is the flip side of producing talent and if Warrington produced a load of good players and some of them ended up in the NRL then that would be great. Wigan have had good service out of Hock and if he goes and proves himself in the NRL it gives a signal of quality of Wigan RL and British RL to the Aussies which is where the powerbase of the game is, and builds our reputations.

Also these kind of pioneers give a good example to young kids wanting a career in league, instead of the usual "play a few years in league then if I'm good go and play union on big money before going back to league", it can be a case of have a career in RL which includes spells in both hemispheres and come back a better player able to pass on experience to other youngsters.

I say good luck to Gareth Hock if he gets a chance with the Eels I hope he takes it with both hands and is a big hit in the NRL, I think he's the type of player that would thrive in that environment.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:54 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I don't see what the big problem is here. Super League is not going to die because Gareth Hock goes to the NRL. Look at countries like France, Brazil etc in football, they have traditionally been net exporters of players because they produce so much talent, those players naturally want to go overseas to spend parts of their careers in different leagues and improve their experience.

The big problem British RL has is Aussies don't take us seriously, they think we are crap. When guys like Morley, Ellis etc go over there and prove themselves they win the Aussies' respect as individuals but there aren't enough of them to change perceptions of British RL in general. But if we start exporting players more regularly and they do well we will start being taken credibly and the national team will be stronger for it.

Look at the Kiwis, how many of their players play in the NZ Bartercard competition - they are all exports to the NRL or SL.

This is the flip side of producing talent and if Warrington produced a load of good players and some of them ended up in the NRL then that would be great. Wigan have had good service out of Hock and if he goes and proves himself in the NRL it gives a signal of quality of Wigan RL and British RL to the Aussies which is where the powerbase of the game is, and builds our reputations.

Also these kind of pioneers give a good example to young kids wanting a career in league, instead of the usual "play a few years in league then if I'm good go and play union on big money before going back to league", it can be a case of have a career in RL which includes spells in both hemispheres and come back a better player able to pass on experience to other youngsters.

I say good luck to Gareth Hock if he gets a chance with the Eels I hope he takes it with both hands and is a big hit in the NRL, I think he's the type of player that would thrive in that environment.

A couple of responses to that: first of all, I don't think we have the player base in this country to be a net exporter to other codes or competitions. Whilst an exodus of UK players would benefit our international team and reputation as a RL nation, it inevitably weakens the domestic competition - because it's the best players that go.

Speaking as a season ticket holder, the games I actually enjoyed watching last year were in the minority - simply because the opposition were often poor. Hock going to the NRL is not a big problem in itself (and I wish him all the best if he goes too), it's simply the mark of a bigger problem concerning the standard of the domestic competition.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:21 pm  

Loosing players of Hock's calibre to any comp whether it be NRL or union, obviously isnt a good thing for the british game. There are few enough players who its worth paying to watch in the comp as it is, and anyone who thinks it is a good thing is crazy IFL included!

Im not sure raising the cap in the short term will make any substantial difference as we would just pay the same average players more to be average (see football for more money doesnt convert to better players) and we still wouldnt be able to offer the top players the same as the NRL and Union, as there just isnt the money in the sport. People keep saying that we have awesome viewing figures on sky, well this should be translated into the brass coming into the game should it not?

I have said for ages that the easiest job in the world is the Head of Marketing for the RFL as they dont do anything. We get a couple of wagons driving around the country, seriously when was the last time you honestly looked at the side of a wagon and thought, "that looks good ill have a bit of that!"

I dont have sky sports anymore, as I went off watching non wigan games on TV about 5 years ago, couldnt put up with tweedle dum and tweedle dumber. In that time I cant recall seeing 1 advert on the tv regarding superleague. (I have however heard the advert on talksport a few times this week, so it seems someone has done a bit of work this month at the RFL)

Its not difficult to put together a marketing campaign, but the RFL would have you believe its a regular Manhattan Project!

Short term we need to increase revenue, which given the viewing figures shouldnt be so difficult and long term we need a complete re-think of how we coach sports as a whole in this country and move away from an attribute based system of coaching to a technique based system, but thats an argument for another thread.

If he does leave though, all the best to him, but it makes me feel even more confident in my decision not to renew my season ticket for the first time in 24 years.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:26 pm  

phibes wrote:

A couple of responses to that: first of all, I don't think we have the player base in this country to be a net exporter to other codes or competitions. Whilst an exodus of UK players would benefit our international team and reputation as a RL nation, it inevitably weakens the domestic competition - because it's the best players that go.

Speaking as a season ticket holder, the games I actually enjoyed watching last year were in the minority - simply because the opposition were often poor. Hock going to the NRL is not a big problem in itself (and I wish him all the best if he goes too), it's simply the mark of a bigger problem concerning the standard of the domestic competition.

Re: Hock : Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:24 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I don't see what the big problem is here. Super League is not going to die because Gareth Hock goes to the NRL.

No, but being as this is the Wigan forum. Please forgive us if we have comments to make when we see a large number of our last seasons team all departing, very quckly, and reducing the overall quality of our team.

Being as you support another team, maybe you see all this as a benefit ?