Re: Forward watch : Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:41 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Careful now!

That would be an ecumenical matter

Re: Forward watch : Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:35 pm  

CobraCraig wrote:

I’m bringing it up because he was absolutely goosed after 5 minutes, nobody else was like that and most had played more than Mago in the 2 games last week. I really like him with the ball in his hand, he’s hard to take down, makes good yards and is always looking for the opportunity too offload but he needs to be fit enough to do more minutes at a higher intensity imo.

Then I would argue he should have been rested and probably would have been had Singleton not been carrying a knock.

You say that most had played more than Mago. Which props are these? Ellis has just had weeks out, Havard has only recently come back in the side and Partington was rested last game. Only Byrne can lay claim to playing as much as Mago and he was less effective than Mago according to the stats above.

I get what you're saying but I really feel placing this importance on minutes played is completely missing the point. In a five prop rotation each one has to play 32 minutes. If Mago only does half an hour then the others have to facilitate this by doing an extra 30 seconds apiece. If he only does 26 they have to do 90 seconds extra each. We have 4 'long minute' props take the field alongside Mago every week so playing 33 1/2 minutes each isn't going to be an issue.

Sure, there'll be times when he needs to do longer, to cover for in game injuries or lack of options coming into a game but he'll hardly be asked to do that on the back of 3 games in a week. Besides which, he did 46 minutes on Easter Monday (his 2nd game in 3 days) so he's clearly capable when it's absolutely necessary.

The focus for Mago should be getting the best out of him when he's on the field. I'm not arguing that this shouldn't take into consideration increased fitness..of course it should...but this obsession with playing long minutes is misplaced. Moreso when using his 3rd game in a week as some kind of yardstick.

Re: Forward watch : Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:10 pm  

CobraCraig wrote:

I’m bringing it up because he was absolutely goosed after 5 minutes, nobody else was like that and most had played more than Mago in the 2 games last week. I really like him with the ball in his hand, he’s hard to take down, makes good yards and is always looking for the opportunity too offload but he needs to be fit enough to do more minutes at a higher intensity imo.

Admittedly didn't see much of him on Sunday but I think his fitness has noticeably improved over the last few weeks and Iv been as big of a critic of his conditioning as anyone. He was left out there for 25 minutes in the 2nd half against Wakefield when the game was already won and he coped OK. If he'd have been asked to do that at the start of the year he'd have probably collapsed.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:22 am  

Byrne has stepped up this year.

Havard his usual self

Smithies has stepped up as well and he was involved in one of our try’s against Salford potentially two.

Partington should be shown the door. He’s just not big enough to be a prop forward. He has great intensity in defence and is super league standard but that’s at a club like Salford IMO.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:16 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Then I would argue he should have been rested and probably would have been had Singleton not been carrying a knock.

You say that most had played more than Mago. Which props are these? Ellis has just had weeks out, Havard has only recently come back in the side and Partington was rested last game. Only Byrne can lay claim to playing as much as Mago and he was less effective than Mago according to the stats above.

I get what you're saying but I really feel placing this importance on minutes played is completely missing the point. In a five prop rotation each one has to play 32 minutes. If Mago only does half an hour then the others have to facilitate this by doing an extra 30 seconds apiece. If he only does 26 they have to do 90 seconds extra each. We have 4 'long minute' props take the field alongside Mago every week so playing 33 1/2 minutes each isn't going to be an issue.

Sure, there'll be times when he needs to do longer, to cover for in game injuries or lack of options coming into a game but he'll hardly be asked to do that on the back of 3 games in a week. Besides which, he did 46 minutes on Easter Monday (his 2nd game in 3 days) so he's clearly capable when it's absolutely necessary.

The focus for Mago should be getting the best out of him when he's on the field. I'm not arguing that this shouldn't take into consideration increased fitness..of course it should...but this obsession with playing long minutes is misplaced. Moreso when using his 3rd game in a week as some kind of yardstick.

It wasn’t just the minutes, it was the lack of carries, not being in the defensive line and being carried from that sense and honestly looking like he was going to pass out after 5 minutes.
I’m not a negative fan/poster you can check my history and see I’m very much glass half full but from what I saw from Mago on Sunday (I’m sure the schedule didn’t help) I’d expect more from a professional sportsman and I think he could do with a rest this week going off that. I’m not expecting massive minutes because we have forwards who can help take the slack with that but we should be expecting a decent amount of carries and yards because he’s not like some of our other props who put up big defensive efforts.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:06 am  

CobraCraig wrote:

It wasn’t just the minutes, it was the lack of carries, not being in the defensive line and being carried from that sense and honestly looking like he was going to pass out after 5 minutes.
I’m not a negative fan/poster you can check my history and see I’m very much glass half full but from what I saw from Mago on Sunday (I’m sure the schedule didn’t help) I’d expect more from a professional sportsman and I think he could do with a rest this week going off that. I’m not expecting massive minutes because we have forwards who can help take the slack with that but we should be expecting a decent amount of carries and yards because he’s not like some of our other props who put up big defensive efforts.

I watched the game on TV yesterday, and his lack of play with the ball (start of 2nd half) was due to Salford starting the half well and keeping the ball. It reminded me in a way of how sides took Feka out of the game, run at him in defence and tire him out, so he is less effective with ball in hand.
In the 1st half when he came on he took in some good drives and caused Salford problems, 2nd half i think he only took it in once, but was made to work in defence. Whether that was good management / play on Salfords behalf, or just the way the 2nd half panned out, i'm not sure, but he certainly wasnt as effective as his stint in the 1st half

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:08 am  

Mago is a luxury player from the bench that I think we can afford because of grafters like Ellis, Singleton and Byrne. There will be games where you look and say he’s not been involved enough but there will be games like Leeds at home and Wakey away in the cup where he throws up some wow moments. The Good Friday game didn’t work out at all for him in terms of the flow of it when he was on but there’s nothing to say he doesn’t come on in the semi final and helps crack them open.

I don’t think he’s come here for any sort of holiday. To the naked eye he looks in better shape than last season in terms of the weight he’s carrying. I just think we’re using him in a certain way but after us being so poor last season in attack and us being so easy to handle through the middle, I’m happy to have the guy as an option to bring from the bench and potentially break teams open for us.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:36 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Mago is a luxury player from the bench that I think we can afford because of grafters like Ellis, Singleton and Byrne. There will be games where you look and say he’s not been involved enough but there will be games like Leeds at home and Wakey away in the cup where he throws up some wow moments. The Good Friday game didn’t work out at all for him in terms of the flow of it when he was on but there’s nothing to say he doesn’t come on in the semi final and helps crack them open.

I don’t think he’s come here for any sort of holiday. To the naked eye he looks in better shape than last season in terms of the weight he’s carrying. I just think we’re using him in a certain way but after us being so poor last season in attack and us being so easy to handle through the middle, I’m happy to have the guy as an option to bring from the bench and potentially break teams open for us.

No disrespect to the grafters that you mention, but if Mago is a luxury player then we need more from them. I've been massively impressed with Ellis and I'm a big believer in the potential of Byrne. Not sold on Singo, despite others saying he's playing well or I should say I don't think he warrants being our most experienced prop.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:14 am  

sergeant pepper wrote:

No disrespect to the grafters that you mention, but if Mago is a luxury player then we need more from them. I've been massively impressed with Ellis and I'm a big believer in the potential of Byrne. Not sold on Singo, despite others saying he's playing well or I should say I don't think he warrants being our most experienced prop.

There’s Havard as well and he eats the ground up, although there is something inside me that keeps wanting more from him (even though he’s playing pretty well). I do think Singleton is playing well tbh and Ellis is showing some really good signs. We’re in a funny position with the prop rotation really. Against the vast majority of sides it’s now winning the battle and that’s huge progress from 2021 but can they do that against Saints or Catalans packs? (more so Saints) I’m not too sure we will. What we need to keep doing is progressing, the young lads keep improving, the overseas props to get better as they settle and a guy like Singleton needs to keep pushing. It’s an area I’d still like to sign one more in but I do think that’s unlikely.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:48 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Mago is a luxury player from the bench that I think we can afford because of grafters like Ellis, Singleton and Byrne. There will be games where you look and say he’s not been involved enough but there will be games like Leeds at home and Wakey away in the cup where he throws up some wow moments. The Good Friday game didn’t work out at all for him in terms of the flow of it when he was on but there’s nothing to say he doesn’t come on in the semi final and helps crack them open.

I don’t think he’s come here for any sort of holiday. To the naked eye he looks in better shape than last season in terms of the weight he’s carrying. I just think we’re using him in a certain way but after us being so poor last season in attack and us being so easy to handle through the middle, I’m happy to have the guy as an option to bring from the bench and potentially break teams open for us.

Exactly this NK. It may not sound like it but I do fully understand those who are perhaps a little frustrated at not getting more minutes from Mago. I just think it's the wrong way to look at it given our current rotation. We have plenty 'minutes' out there. Injuries notwithstanding, that isn't an issue. What we should be looking to do with Mago is maximising impact not minutes. There's an argument above that getting more minutes would equate to getting more impact and, whilst that might be the case at the margins, I don't think it is over a longer period. To put it in its simplest terms; turning him into a 60 minute prop would not get you 60 minutes of impact.

That's not how it works with players like him. I could liken it to saying "wouldn't it be great if Field could break tackles better. We should bulk him up then maybe he could". I doubt anyone in their right mind would advocate bulking Field up as it wouldn't be playing to his strength which is raw pace.

Mago is a luxury player as you say but one we need in our current rotation. We have plenty grafters in the other 5. We have a couple able to make good metres. They are an excellent defensive unit. What we perhaps don't have is X factor. Someone able to turn a match. That's where Mago comes in.

This is where Sunday's match is pertinent. You don't get the best out of him (or Byrne for that matter) by playing them 3 times in a week. To criticise either because they were struggling in that game, for me, is simply missing the point. Especially, in Mago's case, as he had just played decent minutes in the previous game.