Re: England Selection : Wed May 03, 2023 4:26 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Both are struggling and probably wouldn't have played the last couple of games were it not for our injuries. Dodd has been struggling with a hamstring and Lees with his ribs. Wouldn't surprise me if at least one if not both didn't play on Friday.

Walmsley was always 4 weeks from his injury which falls this weekend so timing wise its pretty spot on. Last week would have been too early, he's only trained this week.

No issue with Walmsley, Makinson etc. I just can’t buy the yearly pull outs, only for them to turn out the following weekend being a coincidence. Has Lomax made a miracle recovery as well?

Let’s be honest here, Saints as a club see this as a mid season break and have done since Woolf came in. I hoped it would end under an ex England international and assistant coach but sadly not.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 8:12 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

No issue with Walmsley, Makinson etc. I just can’t buy the yearly pull outs, only for them to turn out the following weekend being a coincidence. Has Lomax made a miracle recovery as well?

Let’s be honest here, Saints as a club see this as a mid season break and have done since Woolf came in. I hoped it would end under an ex England international and assistant coach but sadly not.

Just to say that I don't defend Saints over everything, there are a lot of things I disagree with that we do and I've made my feelings known on that.

However in this instance, initially I could fully understand the thoughts of other fans, in particular Wigan who provided a large number of the team.

It's no secret that Woolf and Wane didn't get on. Rightly or wrongly Woolf put Saints first over the international game and his focus was 100% on Saints. Wellens is a different matter, he worked with Wane as England assistant for years and they get on really well.

When I look at the withdrawals, we already know that Makinson, Walmsley and Percival were injured and hadn't played for Saints the week before. Knowles was suspended. Welsby played so is not applicable.

That leaves Lees, Lomax and Dodd. I think that Wane and Wellens came to a compromise. Lomax for whatever reason isn't fully committed and will be too old for the next WC anyway. Williams is clearly the No. 1 choice at 6 and is the captain.

Dodd has been poor this season and Smith was deserving of his opportunity given his form. Lees was the surprise omission as he has been outstanding the past few weeks. However given Wellens comments and the minutes that Lees has played then I think he has come to an agreement with Wane. Lees has clearly been playing with needles the past few weeks purely down to the injuries we have had.

Lets be honest the best of the lot is Welsby and he was probably the one player that Wellens wanted to rest and not risk an injury but he was allowed to play.

Wane's comments were interesting when asked about the withdrawals. He doesn't strike me as someone who says what people want to hear yet had no issues and even said that "Saints have been doing it tough". Previously he has had no problem with calling out SL coaches and expressing his disappointment that they are not supporting the international game.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 9:04 am  

Did Woolf put Saints first, or did he put Tonga first?

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 9:09 am  

The mid-season International has no prestige and that needs to change. Whether we make this a case of "play or you don't get picked later" I don't know, but as I mentioned somewhere else I would have an independent Dr/physio for England that decides on the fitness of players and takes the decision away from the clubs.

England have no competition in the NH so I would love to see a Euro Nations with France, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and then have Lancs v Yorks. We could maybe have England v England A in a trial scenario with the teams mixed as best as we can but I'm not sure how popular that would be with the paying public.

Either way, sticking 60 points on France or Wales missing 4 or 5 players does nobody any good.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 9:11 am  

Stu M wrote:

Just to say that I don't defend Saints over everything, there are a lot of things I disagree with that we do and I've made my feelings known on that.

However in this instance, initially I could fully understand the thoughts of other fans, in particular Wigan who provided a large number of the team.

It's no secret that Woolf and Wane didn't get on. Rightly or wrongly Woolf put Saints first over the international game and his focus was 100% on Saints. Wellens is a different matter, he worked with Wane as England assistant for years and they get on really well.

When I look at the withdrawals, we already know that Makinson, Walmsley and Percival were injured and hadn't played for Saints the week before. Knowles was suspended. Welsby played so is not applicable.

That leaves Lees, Lomax and Dodd. I think that Wane and Wellens came to a compromise. Lomax for whatever reason isn't fully committed and will be too old for the next WC anyway. Williams is clearly the No. 1 choice at 6 and is the captain.

Dodd has been poor this season and Smith was deserving of his opportunity given his form. Lees was the surprise omission as he has been outstanding the past few weeks. However given Wellens comments and the minutes that Lees has played then I think he has come to an agreement with Wane. Lees has clearly been playing with needles the past few weeks purely down to the injuries we have had.

Lets be honest the best of the lot is Welsby and he was probably the one player that Wellens wanted to rest and not risk an injury but he was allowed to play.

Wane's comments were interesting when asked about the withdrawals. He doesn't strike me as someone who says what people want to hear yet had no issues and even said that "Saints have been doing it tough". Previously he has had no problem with calling out SL coaches and expressing his disappointment that they are not supporting the international game.

All we can do is look at it going forward I suppose. These debates have been going on for years now and they’ll only end if a time comes where Saints players aren’t made unavailable on mass for a game, only to turn out the following week. We can look at cases on an individual basis all we like but there are always at least a couple of dubious ones and that has to change IMO. Players from other clubs have played through niggles or delayed treatment to turn out for England this past few years but there are very very few (if any) examples of Saints players doing that.

The debate will die down now and then we’ll see if it pops up again around the time of the Tonga series. I suspect it will but we’ll see.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 9:38 am  

NSW wrote:

5 Saints players who pulled out with injuries, straight back into their squad for a game 6 days later.

Eleven of the thirteen players from various clubs who pulled put of the England squad are included in their teams squads for the weekend. I guess the bus to Lourdes must have been pretty full.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 10:23 am  

Stu M wrote:

even said that "Saints have been doing it tough". .

Stu, I have to take issue with this. Saints aren't doing it any tougher than Wigan. In fact, as of this week, I believe Wigan have more absentees than Saints. Yet Wigan managed to provide 6 players to the International squad.

Please don't use Wane's sound bites to excuse what is a very poor showing from Saints. You also keep mentioning "coming to an agreement". Where have you seen this, because I haven't seen any mention of it. Is it just another example of putting a spin on it on your part or is there solid proof for this assertion?

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 10:30 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Stu, I have to take issue with this. Saints aren't doing it any tougher than Wigan. In fact, as of this week, I believe Wigan have more absentees than Saints. Yet Wigan managed to provide 6 players to the International squad.

Please don't use Wane's sound bites to excuse what is a very poor showing from Saints. You also keep mentioning "coming to an agreement". Where have you seen this, because I haven't seen any mention of it. Is it just another example of putting a spin on it on your part or is there solid proof for this assertion?

Waney is amazing me with his diplomatic tone each and every time clubs take the mick.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 10:38 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Stu, I have to take issue with this. Saints aren't doing it any tougher than Wigan. In fact, as of this week, I believe Wigan have more absentees than Saints. Yet Wigan managed to provide 6 players to the International squad.

Please don't use Wane's sound bites to excuse what is a very poor showing from Saints. You also keep mentioning "coming to an agreement". Where have you seen this, because I haven't seen any mention of it. Is it just another example of putting a spin on it on your part or is there solid proof for this assertion?

Largely an assumption on my part based on the fact that I know categorically they speak regularly and also know categorically that they get on really well.

I was also told by my mate (who our friend WarringtonWolves69 denies me having) that Lees wouldn't be playing before Saints withdrew him. I didn't believe him at the time but given my mate speaks to Wane a lot then its a presumption that Wane already knew.

Re: England Selection : Thu May 04, 2023 3:23 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Largely an assumption on my part based on the fact that I know categorically they speak regularly and also know categorically that they get on really well.

I was also told by my mate (who our friend WarringtonWolves69 denies me having) that Lees wouldn't be playing before Saints withdrew him. I didn't believe him at the time but given my mate speaks to Wane a lot then its a presumption that Wane already knew.

Fair enough Stu. Even if the assumption is right and there was an "agreement" it doesn't mean Waney was happy about it, despite his conciliatory tone. TBH, my gut instinct is very much in the "not happy but no choice other than to make the best of it" camp if I had to guess.