It's amazing how the GF victory has rose-tinted a lot of Saints fan's views on the entire season. Their pack was "steamrolling everyone" last season and will continue to do so if you believe their board. Trying to say Joel's signing is a poor one is simply idiotic.

They've got a good team, no doubt about it but some are going a little OTT. I've heard a lot of suggestions from Saints fans that they have the best pack in the league which I can't agree with looking at that back row of theirs. Young Thompson looks a prospect but it's always tougher when people know who you are. After him it's guys like Flanagan, Wilkin and Vea so it's hardly top class. The front row has more quality but I read a comment they're head and shoulders above Wigans props which is again a bit of a pipe dream (and even more of a pipe dream looking at a team like Wires).

There's no point getting in to a 'would they' or 'wouldn't they' have won the GF without Flower doing what he did because it's impossible to tell either way but I think there has to be enough sense shown to realise it obviously had an effect on the game. Wigan went in to that game as red hot favourites and were considered to be much the better team so to make wild statements about having the best pack in the league and how their front row is in a different league to ours is a little naive.

Take the following players out of the Wigan squad to what Saints had out and would you have been favorites? Filling in with squad players.

SOL (Wilkin)
Smith (Walsh)
Green after 5 minutes (Hohaia)
Bowen (Lomax)

Wigan were only favorites for a reason, Saints had no organisers.

Spot on.

Throughout the entire aftermath of the Grand Final, all the focus was on the fact Wigan had 12 men. It was conveniently forgotten that we had no halfbacks.

Is playing with 12 men all in their correct positions really a disadvantage against 13 men including:

A prop at 3
A full back at 6
A 2nd rower at 7
A winger at 1
A centre at 2
A centre at 13?

there is an old fashion saying "no props no pots" thats what happened in the grand final and through out the plays offs. We have ferrari's in the back line and a poor pack hampered by a returning player from another code, a ginger that spat his dummy, and two of the best young back rowers in the game being burnt out.

It clearly showed in the grand final a good solid pack is more important the quality backs.

also saints game plan was based around Turner, Flanagan, and Wellens and had been for months so this "had no half backs" is nonsense, 90% of saints fans didn't want Lance anywhere near the 1st team but they conveniently forget that.

Roll on october to rectify history.

Absolute nonsense. You are showing a huge lack of knowledge there.

Hohaia was good last season and he got the fans on his side. He was playing consistently well up until Flower's assault. To suggest 90% of fans didn't want him near the 1st team is massively incorrect.

Also, our game hadn't been based around Turner and Flanagan "for months." Up until the last regular season fixture we had Hohaia and Wheeler at half back and up until the penultimate game we had McDonnell at 1. Flanagan played in the pack up until the start of the playoffs.

The truth is we chopped and changed quite a lot right up until the playoffs and that's when we stuck with Wellens, Hohaia, Flanagan and Turner at 1, 6, 7 and 13.

You are extremely wide of the mark.

Clearly not just have to read the redvee and your own bored to prove that, also he was never your half back or organiser and to try and say he was is totally stupid.

Wheeler how many games did he play again at half back? Flanagan may have had the 2nd row shirt on but very much like o'loughlin he was a half back in the absence of your injured players.

Im not extremely wide of the mark at all please show me one highlight of Lance organising or setting up a try like a half back? he was there for a bit experience thats all.

Our Red card affected us a lot more than your injury to Lance and for you to say otherwise is dumb.

Up until the playoffs he was playing as a 2nd rower. In fact in the final league game he was on the bench. Was he playing as an organising half back from the bench?

Wheeler didn't play many at half back. My point was that we chopped and changed quite a lot and tried different combinations. You suggested that we based our game around Turner and Flanagan for "months." The truth is that in September Turner was still at 3 and Flanagan was an interchange forward. That is not up for debate; it's factual.

Hohaia played at half back, as a half back, for most of the season and played well. As for him never setting up tries, he created 12 last season, just 4 behind Blake Green who I'm sure you would agree is a half back.

Seriously mate I'd give up now because you obviously don't know what you're on about. I can continue to prove you wrong on Saints and how we played but that would just be derailing a thread. Give it up mate.

What was so important for Saints was finishing top and able to pick Catalan over Warrington.
IMO Warrington would have beaten St Helens in the semi final and the Grand Final would have been even more difficult for Wigan to win.

Very true. We were there for the taking with such a depleted, disjointed side.

RUMOURS AND SIGNINGS THREAD PEOPLE (inc those on my ignore list)