Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:02 pm  

Warrior Winger wrote:

Okay, so we are 61 pages in now and I have read every post (more fool me) but can anyone tell me what is the actual point of the thread and what is the debate about as I am really lost with it all now.

Are we objecting/supporting the vaccine, or is it about mandatory vaccination, who has lied about what, or is it one of those threads that someone starts to see just how long they can keep it going.

Someone please put me out of my misery

Same here - Hence why I keep asking for a simple statement as to what peoples issues are put as simply as possible (But I don't seem to get a reply)
Right at the beginning it seemed to be the argument was about whether Vaccines worked etc. and if there was any deviation from that it was about whether Younger people should have it.
IMO - I think the evidence has proved that it works (And before anyone jumps down my throat and quotes "X" have died etc. that have been vaccinated, Yes we know, but statistically you are many times less likely to be seriously ill/die if your vaccinated in all age groups).

There seem to be some people upset about the Government lying (I would say yes they are liars and there's no-one hates them more than me - However being liars and corrupt about one thing doesn't mean they are that about everything)
Some people seem to think that the MSM (Still can't believe I've used that phrase again) are scaring/lying etc. - when in reality it seems to be that people on either side of the argument tend to be ok with the MSM saying things if they agree with them, yet go apoplectic if they don't agree with it! Cheap argument IMO
There seems to be a split in the above were some people are getting info from other sources, that people like me aren't as trusting with and in a lot of instances (Again I will stress IMO) are nut jobs and equally if not more lying/pushing their agendas

The question now seems to be about Mandates etc.
99% seem to be in agreement that they shouldn't be mandated - however a split over if companies/sports clubs/health organisations have the right to mandate for employment

I'm a little bit in the middle on this - however if I have to come down on side, I'd say that I think those organisations have a right to employ/admit who they want - We can't claim freedom of choice one way and not the other.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:05 pm  

muttywhitedog wrote: It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers. Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way. Have I summed it up ok for you? Much better than me Maybe Eric Clapton does have a point? The irony of claiming people who get the vaccine are hypnotised whilst ignoring how his own theories and ideas are obtained & distributed is astounding IMO. Josh Rogan etc being an example. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 9ab5f3095f I don't know whether to laugh or cry

muttywhitedog wrote: It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers. Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way. Have I summed it up ok for you? Much better than me Maybe Eric Clapton does have a point? The irony of claiming people who get the vaccine are hypnotised whilst ignoring how his own theories and ideas are obtained & distributed is astounding IMO. Josh Rogan etc being an example. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 9ab5f3095f I don't know whether to laugh or cry

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:27 pm  

muttywhitedog wrote:

It was about the potential impact on the start of the season, and whether or not spectators would be allowed in. It then became a pro/anti vax debate, and freedom of choice, and then progressed to whether it is ok for pro-vaxers to have the freedom of choice not to share close proximity with the aniti vaxers.

Usual drills here - anti vaxers want to be able to go wherever they want without a thought for those who dont want them anywhere near them because freedom of choice only works one way.

Have I summed it up ok for you?

Ah right I see, so back on topic, I dont think it will impac the start of the season, im double jabbed and boosted

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:08 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

So basically if anyone else says anything that doesn't suit your arguement it's heresay, not really relevant, or twisted facts and figures.?

There was no need for any more context than what was given
You are vastly times more like to be seriously ill, or die, from covid without the vaccines cine than with it.
And as a slight aside no one ever said that vaccines stopped anyone from getting it or passing it on, but it does reduce the likelihood of transmission and getting it.

If I was dying I would get medical attention from a doctor or nurse with Ebola, doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer one that hasn't

I think I've seen one person say they would hold them down etc. And give them the vaccine, if that poster is half as perplexed as I've been I can understand their frustration.

But in reality that was 1 post, 50 pages past the original point, which I still can't get my head round because.you and quite a few.others seemed to be arguing differently back then, that vaccines do or don't work. Iirc there was.lots of counter arguments saying they didn't etc, and certainly in different age groups.

However if the argument had now come down to this last point then I'm fine and we can put this to bed hopefully

We have most people saying that everyone has the choice to be vaccinated or not?

Whilst we have a disagreement if employers/premise owners have the right to choose to employ said vaccinated/non-vaccinated

If that's the case, then I think we can talk for another 100pages on that 1 point.

I myself, as do 99% of people I can see on here (so don't make out that because 1.person said something we are all for mandatory vaccinations for all) are all for choice.

But we have a split on whether businesses, health sectors rtc. have the right to choose whether to employ them? Or let them into their premises/events.

And if that is the case, then its a thousand miles from were the disagreement was 30 pages ago. Funny how goalposts move

No, that’s not what I said at all, my point about facts/figures/statistics is that they can be represented whatever way you want to push a certain agenda. All that I have ever asked when people have posted them is to explain the context behind them and if people don’t know that and just post for the sake of it or because they found it in the MSM (I know you like that acronym ) then I can’t really comment on that information.

Take the “up to 90% of patients in ICU are unvaccinated” that’s a shocking statistic and headline to read but in the grand scheme of things it could be 9/10 patients in one hospital are unvaccinated and all other patients in all the other hospitals are. I am not saying that is the case but you get my point, that fact on its own tells us nothing.

I’m not really sure how I have argued differently before, I can’t recall I have ever said vaccines don’t work and my stance has always been I don’t think the vaccine is right for everyone. However, to be clear I have never once suggested to anyone to not get the vaccine as that would be hypocritical of me to do so.

Regarding employers mandating whether that’s NHS, corporate firms or Wigan Warriors I again don’t agree with that and is my opinion.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:26 pm  

WiganRL12345 wrote:

I’m not really sure how I have argued differently before, I can’t recall I have ever said vaccines don’t work and my stance has always been I don’t think the vaccine is right for everyone. However, to be clear I have never once suggested to anyone to not get the vaccine as that would be hypocritical of me to do so.

Regarding employers mandating whether that’s NHS, corporate firms or Wigan Warriors I again don’t agree with that and is my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong then. For far too long now (& across all walks of life and not just covid), we've put too much emphasis on not upsetting peoples opinions, no matter how stupid they are or how much of a danger they are.

Apart from if the vaccine was to cause you serious harm, what good reason is there not to have it and why should it be left to individuals to make the decision?

There's loads of examples in life where personal choice is taken away, simply because it's what's best for the individual and society. You have to to school, you can't drink and drive, you can't legally do drugs, you can't do certain jobs without qualifications - all of them + more take away the choice of a person to do what they want. Why?

This vaccine helps fight COViD. A disease that's ravaged through every part of society, across the world. Deaths, job losses, isolation, education, sport etc all paying the price. Quite simply - everyone should be forced to have the vaccine as it helps reduce the impact of the disease. It really is that simple. You'd think after 2 years of upheaval it would be clear as day, but no there's always someone who bleats on about their rights or plays the victim card.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:44 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

Your opinion is wrong then. For far too long now (& across all walks of life and not just covid), we've put too much emphasis on not upsetting peoples opinions, no matter how stupid they are or how much of a danger they are.

Apart from if the vaccine was to cause you serious harm, what good reason is there not to have it and why should it be left to individuals to make the decision?

There's loads of examples in life where personal choice is taken away, simply because it's what's best for the individual and society. You have to to school, you can't drink and drive, you can't legally do drugs, you can't do certain jobs without qualifications - all of them + more take away the choice of a person to do what they want. Why?

This vaccine helps fight COViD. A disease that's ravaged through every part of society, across the world. Deaths, job losses, isolation, education, sport etc all paying the price. Quite simply - everyone should be forced to have the vaccine as it helps reduce the impact of the disease. It really is that simple. You'd think after 2 years of upheaval it would be clear as day, but no there's always someone who bleats on about their rights or plays the victim card.

Not sure how an opinion can be wrong it’s an opinion not factual.

However, to elaborate on what you say and the loads of examples where personal choice is taken away I will say you are wrong.

Going to school - You don’t have to ‘go’ to school there is no law to enforce that
Drink and drive - Whilst it’s against the law to drive above the legal limit people can and do decide to do that. No way am I condoning it
Taking drugs - Again against the law but people choose to do so, also what is illegal in the UK is legal in other countries
Jobs without qualifications? Fair enough but slightly different to putting something in your body as a person picking a career has endless other opportunities whereas, someone being forced to to have a vaccine they don’t want doesn’t.

By the way please show me where I have ‘played’ the victim card.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:50 pm  

There are definitely laws about going to school.

Just to throw it out there....

In certain professions you need to undergo regular medicals in order to remain in employment. Perhaps we should do away with them because someone may wish to eat a chippy tea 7 days a week?

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:57 pm  

WiganRL12345 wrote:

Not sure how an opinion can be wrong it’s an opinion not factual.

However, to elaborate on what you say and the loads of examples where personal choice is taken away I will say you are wrong.

Going to school - You don’t have to ‘go’ to school there is no law to enforce that
Drink and drive - Whilst it’s against the law to drive above the legal limit people can and do decide to do that. No way am I condoning it
Taking drugs - Again against the law but people choose to do so, also what is illegal in the UK is legal in other countries
Jobs without qualifications? Fair enough but slightly different to putting something in your body as a person picking a career has endless other opportunities whereas, someone being forced to to have a vaccine they don’t want doesn’t.

By the way please show me where I have ‘played’ the victim card.

You have a special talent for not answering questions...

What possible reason (apart from threat to your life) is there not to make everyone have the vaccine?

Of course an opinion can be wrong btw and that's exactly what's wrong with society. You can have an opinion that the earth is flat, doesn't mean it's correct and that you shouldn't be told that in unequivocal terms. Even if that upsets sensitivities.

Every anti vax person is playing the victim card. The "my choice", "my body my rights" BS that keeps getting spouted. It's selfishness of the highest order.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:59 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

There are definitely laws about going to school.

Just to throw it out there....

In certain professions you need to undergo regular medicals in order to remain in employment. Perhaps we should do away with them because someone may wish to eat a chippy tea 7 days a week?

He's being pedantic (who'd have thought it). You need to be in education from the age of 5. You don't need to "go" to a school for it.

Sums up the whole argument and moving goal posts to suit a small section of a narrative.

Re: Covid : Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:08 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

He's being pedantic (who'd have thought it). You need to be in education from the age of 5. You don't need to "go" to a school for it.

Sums up the whole argument and moving goal posts to suit a small section of a narrative.

True