Re: Forward watch : Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:08 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

You have a better memory than me! I certainly thought Wigan could be a pretty cynical team which overstepped the mark at times (don't think I was alone in that) and like many I also thought Maguire brought a defensive style to the league (since widely replicated, including at Saints) which served to slowed the game down and (in my opinion) dilute it as a spectacle. PTB speed is still slow today compared to where it was which, in my view, remains a shame whether or not it is my team winning the pots.

I think that was pretty much your opinion expressed at the time too. It's interesting that, as you say, everything that Wigan did back then has been adopted by pretty much every other team. Whether that's a good thing or not is, I suppose, down to personal preference. My opinion at the time was that no sport stays the same and once a given genie is out the bottle it's near impossible to put back. I remember one Saints fan (don't think it was you this time) that said if Saints ever started to play that way he'd stop watching (sic). I'd be interested to see if he's been appalled by Saints' recent success which has largely been built on the principles he derided when it was Wigan?

Re: Forward watch : Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:22 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I think that was pretty much your opinion expressed at the time too. It's interesting that, as you say, everything that Wigan did back then has been adopted by pretty much every other team. Whether that's a good thing or not is, I suppose, down to personal preference. My opinion at the time was that no sport stays the same and once a given genie is out the bottle it's near impossible to put back. I remember one Saints fan (don't think it was you this time) that said if Saints ever started to play that way he'd stop watching (sic). I'd be interested to see if he's been appalled by
Saints' recent success which has largely been built on the principles he derided when it was Wigan?

A couple of points
Daniel Anderson & Nathan Brown brought their own Defensive techniques/systems into the British game way before Maguire did, this brought a slowing down of the PTB etc.
Maguire brought adaptations of that and some of the Melbourne systems to supplement that - It only apparently became a problem at that point (Wonder why)

As most people know - I don't buy totally into the Wigan became Boring under Wane etc. theory - I think its a more nuanced conversation than that
But Saints 2020/21 very much have a synergy to Wanes teams of 14-18 built around strangling teams etc.
The 2022 version of Saints is yet to be decided IMO albeit they retain without a doubt the defensive capabilities of the teams of the last 3 years (If not better).

Under Wolf, as Nicky Kiss alludes to on another thread, Saints (And some other teams) have pushed the boundaries of professionalism/Cynical play, feigning injury, getting the game stopped at the point you want it to, to gain a penalty for nothing more than a fleeting touch above the shoulder etc.

And here's the crux, fans don't think it's a problem when they're winning/doing it better than anyone else, but when someone else does it it's Boring/Cheating/wrong etc. (Applies to fans of all clubs)
And Saints fans were very much critical of Maguire/Wane 2010-18 - Yet have and are praising the Saints teams of 2020-2022 for playing in a very similar way.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:30 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

A couple of points
Daniel Anderson & Nathan Brown brought their own Defensive techniques/systems into the British game way before Maguire did, this brought a slowing down of the PTB etc.
Maguire brought adaptations of that and some of the Melbourne systems to supplement that - It only apparently became a problem at that point (Wonder why)

As most people know - I don't buy totally into the Wigan became Boring under Wane etc. theory - I think its a more nuanced conversation than that
But Saints 2020/21 very much have a synergy to Wanes teams of 14-18 built around strangling teams etc.
The 2022 version of Saints is yet to be decided IMO albeit they retain without a doubt the defensive capabilities of the teams of the last 3 years (If not better).

Under Wolf, as Nicky Kiss alludes to on another thread, Saints (And some other teams) have pushed the boundaries of professionalism/Cynical play, feigning injury, getting the game stopped at the point you want it to, to gain a penalty for nothing more than a fleeting touch above the shoulder etc.

And here's the crux, fans don't think it's a problem when they're winning/doing it better than anyone else, but when someone else does it it's Boring/Cheating/wrong etc. (Applies to fans of all clubs)
And Saints fans were very much critical of Maguire/Wane 2010-18 - Yet have and are praising the Saints teams of 2020-2022 for playing in a very similar way.

Yes, all very true. I think the recent Saints success is pretty much a blueprint of the Wigan teams of that era. Quick line speed and aggressive defence strangling the life out if the opposition and then we'd burn them with what became known as "the move" Saints have added the Walmsley factor to that (our big metres always came from the back row as they do to this day) and "the move" may be less effective than it once was so is used more sparingly but otherwise it's pretty much built on the same principles.

Re: Forward watch : Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:35 pm  

On the other point (not sure if it belongs here or on the other thread) I really don't like the playing for penalties that has increasingly crept into the game. I don't like it when Wigan do it and I certainly don't like it when it's done against us. I think it's fair to say that Walmsley is the worst in the league for trying to milk penalties. Even pundits like Carney and Pryce have made mention of it recently. However I think the Welsby incident is an altogether different beast. That's cynical taken to another level and I truly hope it's an aberration on Welsby's part and not something that's being coached

Re: Forward watch : Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:17 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

On the other point (not sure if it belongs here or on the other thread) I really don't like the playing for penalties that has increasingly crept into the game. I don't like it when Wigan do it and I certainly don't like it when it's done against us. I think it's fair to say that Walmsley is the worst in the league for trying to milk penalties. Even pundits like Carney and Pryce have made mention of it recently. However I think the Welsby incident is an altogether different beast. That's cynical taken to another level and I truly hope it's an aberration on Welsby's part and not something that's being coached

I have a lot of respect for how Walmsley has developed over the last 10 years or so but I worry that if he continues with his childish and churlish antics he legacy to non Saints fans will be of that of a whinging spoilt brat rather than an exceptional prop.

Over the year’s I’ve always had pride in our sport of the honesty of the players on how they approach and play the game but the increasing use of play acting in all it’s forms for me will seriously damage the sport unless the authorities look to stamp it out.

At some point and I think it won’t be too far away I genuinely think that there will be a clampdown on this type of behaviour. Personally if Walmsley or any player continuously tried to milk a penalty and whinge if they don’t get one If I was the referee I’d stop play and bring the player to me together with the captain and explain why I hadn’t given a penalty giving the defending team time to set up their defence. Do that a few times and I’m sure coaches would start insisting on just getting on with the game.

I’m a believer that the game is played in cycles. Recent history defence has been king for most teams. I think we are now starting to see more teams taking a risk partly as style of play but just as much that unless they do they won’t be able to unlock ever improving defences.

I’m using Walmsley as the example because as you say he is the obvious example who uses these tactics with monotonous regularity. I’d like to think that if a Wigan player used these tactics I’d be equally scathing and I’d use Marshall as our example of a player who literally expected a penalty every tackle albeit this thankfully now seems a tactic he uses less now than he did a year or two ago.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:32 am  

I'd broadly agree with that, and add that I think the refs in the NRL are a bit more up to speed with milking, and I hope SL refs start to behave in the same way, for the benefit of the game.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:19 am  

Saints fan here. I've been reading posts on here for some time and now felt compelled to register and join. I go by the username Reacher on Red Vee so those that know me (Rogues Gallery is one) know that I am reasonable and fair minded. There are also some decent posters on here- Nicky Kiss for example regularly gives Saints credit, in fact I think he is a closet Saints fan really

I understand that successful teams are there to be shot at and all other fans dislike them- Utd in the 90s and early 2000s being an example, (I am a Utd fan too) however some of the criticism that Saints are getting at the moment astounds me. This current team is outstanding and we have been for the past 3 years. Defensively it is the best team I've ever seen at Saints including the treble winning Daniel Anderson side of 2006.

What I can't get my head around is this notion that we are horrible to watch and poor in attack. Have you actually watched our games? We have posted big scores in the first 2 rounds played in poor conditions. Yes we played 12 men in both but look at the scores prior to the red cards, they were hardly game changers. We will also improve as the season continues.

Welsby and Dodd are two flair players that score tries from nothing, Dodd's kick and chase against Catalans and his brilliant step against Hull, Welsby with his brilliant kick through against Hull. We now attack both sides and in Percival have one of the best strike centres in the league. We are also missing Grace who gives us that X factor and can go the length of the field with a couple of steps.

I will agree that there were elements of last season that we were hard to watch, games won on brilliant defence and barge overs but you can see already this season a change of tactics with Welsby and Dodd having the confidence and freedom to do what they like. Lomax is also not confined to the left anymore and pops up all over the pitch.

I really can't understand the criticism we are receiving. I suppose we should be flattered really.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:07 am  

I think two games in when playing against teams with players sent off is hard to judge whether the style has really changed that much, but I do like the look of Dodds and he seems a much more heads-up style of player.

There is no denying that Saints are not the off the cuff 'entertainers' they once were. They have a very rigid structure and pressurise the opposition better than any other team with line speed and kick chase which often leads to mistakes and then Saints capitalise.

I'd be willing to bet that the amount of tries Saints get on the back of putting pressure on the opposition is far higher than any other team due to well organised and aggressive defence in the past two seasons.

Maybe it's because I'm a wigan fan - but I think the amount of claiming for a penalty by the Saints players is also far higher than any other team - but obviously have no metrics to back this up. I just think that along with the attention to detail that is put into all aspects of Saints play - and I think they are the best drilled team in the competition, this is also one area that gets alot of attention to detail in training too.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:17 am  

Stu M wrote:

Saints fan here. I've been reading posts on here for some time and now felt compelled to register and join. I go by the username Reacher on Red Vee so those that know me (Rogues Gallery is one) know that I am reasonable and fair minded. There are also some decent posters on here- Nicky Kiss for example regularly gives Saints credit, in fact I think he is a closet Saints fan really

I understand that successful teams are there to be shot at and all other fans dislike them- Utd in the 90s and early 2000s being an example, (I am a Utd fan too) however some of the criticism that Saints are getting at the moment astounds me. This current team is outstanding and we have been for the past 3 years. Defensively it is the best team I've ever seen at Saints including the treble winning Daniel Anderson side of 2006.

What I can't get my head around is this notion that we are horrible to watch and poor in attack. Have you actually watched our games? We have posted big scores in the first 2 rounds played in poor conditions. Yes we played 12 men in both but look at the scores prior to the red cards, they were hardly game changers. We will also improve as the season continues.

Welsby and Dodd are two flair players that score tries from nothing, Dodd's kick and chase against Catalans and his brilliant step against Hull, Welsby with his brilliant kick through against Hull. We now attack both sides and in Percival have one of the best strike centres in the league. We are also missing Grace who gives us that X factor and can go the length of the field with a couple of steps.

I will agree that there were elements of last season that we were hard to watch, games won on brilliant defence and barge overs but you can see already this season a change of tactics with Welsby and Dodd having the confidence and freedom to do what they like. Lomax is also not confined to the left anymore and pops up all over the pitch.

I really can't understand the criticism we are receiving. I suppose we should be flattered really.

For me, it's simply looking at how you played against us over the last few seasons.

In 2019 under Holbrook you butchered us each and every time. The playoff game was over with before I'd got a decent spot in the stand. In 2020 and 2021, while you still beat us, the scorelines were that bit closer (reserves aside). The Grand Final should have been well and truly over with the amount of ball you had but I never felt like you would score and it took a fluke for you to do so. If Holbrook is in charge there I think you win by 10-20 points.

I dread to think what a Holbrook coached side would have done to us last season.

Woolf took you from winning in style to winning by any means necessary. You still score some good tries, but so do the leagues worst sides, but rather than look to blow teams off the park you look to wear them down instead.

All opinion and all irrelevant really because you are still the current yardstick however you choose to play. (would still love to see how you go missing 7 or 8 players for a long period like every other side seems to have to do to see this famed "depth" that you have)

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:31 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

2016 truly was our darkest hour, KC at the height of his coaching powers, and the prospect of replacing Luke Walsh (albeit post broken leg Walsh) with Matty Smith and Tommy Lee…

2017 transfers;
In: Matty Smith (Wigan Warriors), Tommy Lee (Salford), Luke Douglas (Gold Coast), Ryan Morgan (Melbourne), Adam Walker (HKR)
Out: Travis Burns (Manly), Shannon McDonnall (aus second grade), Andre Savelio (Warrington), Lama Tasi (Salford), Jordan Turner (Canberra), Atelea Vea (Leigh), Luke Walsh (Catalan Dragons)

2018 transfers;
In: James Bentley (Bradford Bulls), Ben Barba (mid season)
Out: Greg Richards (mid season - Leigh)

2019 transfers;
In: James Batchelor (York), Kevin Naiqama (West tigers), Joseph Paulo (Cronulla Sharks), Lachlan Coote (Nirth Queensland Cowboys)
Out: Jon Wilkin (Toronto), Matty Smith (Catalan Dragons), Ben Barba (North Queensland Cowboys), Ryan Morgan (London)

2020 transfers;
In:
Out; Danny Richardson (Castleford), Adam Swift (Hull fc)

2021 transfers;
In: Joel Thompson (Manly), Iggy Paasi (NZ Warriors), Sione Mata’uitia (Newcastle Knights), Dan Norman (London), Jame Graham (mid season)
Out: Luke Thompson (mid season), James Graham (retired), Joseph Paulo (Toulouse), Dom Peyroux (Toulouse), Jack Ashworth (Huddersfield)

2022 transfers;
In: Konrad Harrell ( Leeds), Will Hopoate (Canterbury Bulldogs), Curtis Sironen (Manly), Joey Lussick (Parramatta Eels), James Bell (Leigh)
Out: James Bentley (Leeds), Theo Fages (Huddersfield), Lachlan Coote ( HKR), Joel Thompson (retired), Kev Naiqama (Sydney Roosters), Aaron Smith. (Leigh - loan)

The main thing that strikes me here is Saints' reliance on strong overseas recruitment, which, until this year has been almost the opposite of our recruitment strategy.

Since 2017 their only British signing that's still around is Batchelor I think?