Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:00 pm  

True dat.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:46 pm  

jonh wrote:

Kick return is a massive part of fullback play though. When Sam was playing our kick return was woeful. The time he was taking to collect the ball then get the ball to a winger meant that we were starting all our sets on the back foot after a dominant tackle 20 yards where we probably should have been. It was killing us and allowing teams to dominate sets.

That's not new though, we did the same in his first spell. I think it makes sense as we aren't giving teams a free chance to whack him on their own terms, and the wingers are more likely to win the floor and get a quick ptb.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:29 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

That's not new though, we did the same in his first spell. I think it makes sense as we aren't giving teams a free chance to whack him on their own terms, and the wingers are more likely to win the floor and get a quick ptb.

That tactic however clearly wasn't working. The notion that we can carry a player at fullback one of the most if not the most exposed player on the pitch protection I find bizarre. If he is unable to return kicks then he should not be at fullback.

I actually remember his kick return being fairly strong. I accept injury has taken its toll, if however when he is fit he can't return the ball then he is not worth a place in the team at 1.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:42 pm  

jonh wrote:

That tactic however clearly wasn't working. The notion that we can carry a player at fullback one of the most if not the most exposed player on the pitch protection I find bizarre. If he is unable to return kicks then he should not be at fullback.

I actually remember his kick return being fairly strong. I accept injury has taken its toll, if however when he is fit he can't return the ball then he is not worth a place in the team at 1.

Couldn't agree more, he needs to go to 7 and Escare to 1.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:01 pm  

jonh wrote:

That tactic however clearly wasn't working. The notion that we can carry a player at fullback one of the most if not the most exposed player on the pitch protection I find bizarre. If he is unable to return kicks then he should not be at fullback.

I actually remember his kick return being fairly strong. I accept injury has taken its toll, if however when he is fit he can't return the ball then he is not worth a place in the team at 1.

It isn't that he can't do it, but when you have a Manfredi or a Charnley alongside you it is obviously a team tactic to use the bigger men (Correctly IMO)

Whilst not possessing the same electrifying pace he once had Tomkins is more than adequate at FB. Lomax played for England on Saturday and if Tomkins had produced the exact same display he would have been hung drawn and quartered. People just like to moan on here

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:03 pm  

post wrote:

Couldn't agree more, he needs to go to 7 and Escare to 1.

As I said, I believe this weak kick return is down to either team plans or hesitation as he was clearly playing not fully recovered. I can't imagine that Escare's returns would be better than a fit Tomkins. He seems to have put some bulk on since returning from NZ too, so I would hope if he gets back to full fitness and runs in with commitment then his returns should be pretty good. Up until his last season with us before going to NZ his returns were good, he was consistently near the top of the metres made chart.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:45 pm  

I think the tactic might be for the bigger wingers to get a quick ptb then tomkins is there on t2 to try and attack a broken line/set up the other winger.

Either way the reason he isn't taking the hit ups is either injury/instruction and as such I don't think you can hold him to account for that. The only way he would deserve criticism was if it was due to fear and Tomkins has shown repeatedly he is willing to put his body on the line so it can't be that.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:03 pm  

JWarriors wrote:

As I said, I believe this weak kick return is down to either team plans or hesitation as he was clearly playing not fully recovered. I can't imagine that Escare's returns would be better than a fit Tomkins. He seems to have put some bulk on since returning from NZ too, so I would hope if he gets back to full fitness and runs in with commitment then his returns should be pretty good. Up until his last season with us before going to NZ his returns were good, he was consistently near the top of the metres made chart.

I do believe it is a tactic/instruction because he is ineffective at kick returns, that is one reason I believe Manfredi should be moved to fullback as he returns kicks just like Billy Slater, without fear.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:14 pm  

JWarriors wrote:

I feel sorry for Sam at the moment.
Everyone seems to be on his back, when in reality, he's been unlucky with injuries in the last 12-15 months.
I feel like we owe him enough to at least wait until he recovers from his injuries before we talk about offloading him for a 2 time drug cheat.
Even when he played this season although not as good as his play in 2013 and earlier, he was still much better than people are making out, especially for someone recovering from an ACL injury.
If you actually look at his stats and work out his stats per game averages, they are scarily similar to Jamie Shaul in terms of Tries, Assists, Tackles, Missed tackles and errors. The only thing he is behind on is metres as he hasn't been returning kicks if the winger is available. Shaul in career best form, and Tomkins in career worst form, I'd wait it out until he's injury free.

Good post. I'd agree.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:07 pm  

I agree I think it is a tactic, but it is a tactic born out of necessity trying to protect Tomkins. I would be very suprised if it is a tactic we employ with Escare at 1, who is smaller than Tomkins.

The time it takes for Tomkins to look for his winger then put a pass in, a backwards pass gives the opposition chase another couple of seconds at least to take up territory.

The result was we were starting our plays after a dominant tackle with our forwards still tracking back and our outside backs going up against a set defence.

I think Tomkins injury and Sarg at fullback, and I don't think he looked for his wingers nearly as much on kick returns, was a crucial part of our season coming good when it did.

It may seem harsh but that is how I saw it. A fully fit robust Tomkins would/should be looking for his wingers as much.