Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:36 am  

Egg Chasing wrote:

For me, it's simply looking at how you played against us over the last few seasons.

In 2019 under Holbrook you butchered us each and every time. The playoff game was over with before I'd got a decent spot in the stand. In 2020 and 2021, while you still beat us, the scorelines were that bit closer (reserves aside). The Grand Final should have been well and truly over with the amount of ball you had but I never felt like you would score and it took a fluke for you to do so. If Holbrook is in charge there I think you win by 10-20 points.

I dread to think what a Holbrook coached side would have done to us last season.

Woolf took you from winning in style to winning by any means necessary. You still score some good tries, but so do the leagues worst sides, but rather than look to blow teams off the park you look to wear them down instead.

All opinion and all irrelevant really because you are still the current yardstick however you choose to play. (would still love to see how you go missing 7 or 8 players for a long period like every other side seems to have to do to see this famed "depth" that you have)

But thats treating Woolfs style as a coach as a static thing. As already has been said, over the last 12 months Saints fans have seen a marked change in their approach to the game. Its almost like Woolf had to spend the first year getting the defensive structures to his satisfaction, and has now remembered he needs to coach attack as well. When coupled with "the changing of the guard" in the spine, its lead to a very different style of play, and a much more enjoyable one to boot. The hyper defensive/ conservative "Woolfball" as it was called hasnt been mentioned since before the CC final.

I would also say GFs are not a good judge of how attacking or otherwise a team is, you defended like your lives depended on it that night, and your club were determined to send SOL out on a high. Ironcically, I have always said I dont think a Holbrook coached team would have won that game, theyd have become flustered and panicked - thus I think the more interesting game would have been if we hadnt have choked in the 2018 semi, and played in Wanes last game...

Grace, Hopoate, Amor and Bell all didnt play in the game vs Hull, so theres half of your 8 already Wingfield, Foster and Davies got a good amount of experience last year either through loan or DR, and Smith is currently on loan with Leigh with him not going to be getting game time ahead of Roby/ Lussick. Then throw in the next off the line (Sambou, Martyn, Bennison) and the other project we have (Norman) theyre a bit more wildcard but should be looking to step up in a game or two this year too.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:43 am  

Wigg'n wrote:

The main thing that strikes me here is Saints' reliance on strong overseas recruitment, which, until this year has been almost the opposite of our recruitment strategy.

Since 2017 their only British signing that's still around is Batchelor I think?

Dan Norman too, though hes yet to break through into the first team at all I think (I think he was an unused sub in one game last year?) Itll be interesting if he gets renewed next year.

One thing we have been incredibly good at is retaining our young players. Welsby, Percival, Makinson, Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Batchelor, Knowles all in the team with either long term contract, or been with us for a long time, depending on where they are in their career. Lees and Grace are out of contract this year, so will be interesting to see if theres a breaking point, or if this retention can continue.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:45 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

But thats treating Woolfs style as a coach as a static thing. As already has been said, over the last 12 months Saints fans have seen a marked change in their approach to the game. Its almost like Woolf had to spend the first year getting the defensive structures to his satisfaction, and has now remembered he needs to coach attack as well. When coupled with "the changing of the guard" in the spine, its lead to a very different style of play, and a much more enjoyable one to boot. The hyper defensive/ conservative "Woolfball" as it was called hasnt been mentioned since before the CC final.

I would also say GFs are not a good judge of how attacking or otherwise a team is, you defended like your lives depended on it that night, and your club were determined to send SOL out on a high. The more interesting game is if we hadnt have choked in the 2018 semi, and played in Wanes last game...

I'd expect us to defend like our lives depend on it every week, but when we played a Holbrook side it didn't seem to matter. Take the points you made in the top paragraph though and as I said - all opinion and pretty much irrelevant.

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Grace, Hopoate, Amor and Bell all didnt play in the game vs Hull, so theres half of your 8 already Wingfield, Foster and Davies got a good amount of experience last year either through loan or DR, and Smith is currently on loan with Leigh with him not going to be getting game time ahead of Roby/ Lussick. Then throw in the next off the line (Sambou, Martyn, Bennison) and the other project we have (Norman) theyre a bit more wildcard but should be looking to step up in a game or two this year too.

"A game or two" is perfectly fine and is what you've been able to do with your youngsters for the most part. Dropping them into an otherwise full strength side that's winning games is easy and they won't look out of place.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:53 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Saints fan here. I've been reading posts on here for some time and now felt compelled to register and join. I go by the username Reacher on Red Vee so those that know me (Rogues Gallery is one) know that I am reasonable and fair minded. There are also some decent posters on here- Nicky Kiss for example regularly gives Saints credit, in fact I think he is a closet Saints fan really

I understand that successful teams are there to be shot at and all other fans dislike them- Utd in the 90s and early 2000s being an example, (I am a Utd fan too) however some of the criticism that Saints are getting at the moment astounds me. This current team is outstanding and we have been for the past 3 years. Defensively it is the best team I've ever seen at Saints including the treble winning Daniel Anderson side of 2006.

What I can't get my head around is this notion that we are horrible to watch and poor in attack. Have you actually watched our games? We have posted big scores in the first 2 rounds played in poor conditions. Yes we played 12 men in both but look at the scores prior to the red cards, they were hardly game changers. We will also improve as the season continues.

Welsby and Dodd are two flair players that score tries from nothing, Dodd's kick and chase against Catalans and his brilliant step against Hull, Welsby with his brilliant kick through against Hull. We now attack both sides and in Percival have one of the best strike centres in the league. We are also missing Grace who gives us that X factor and can go the length of the field with a couple of steps.

I will agree that there were elements of last season that we were hard to watch, games won on brilliant defence and barge overs but you can see already this season a change of tactics with Welsby and Dodd having the confidence and freedom to do what they like. Lomax is also not confined to the left anymore and pops up all over the pitch.

I really can't understand the criticism we are receiving. I suppose we should be flattered really.

I think you're slightly missing the point of some of the "criticism" as you see it. It isn't criticism per se but an acknowledgement that it's based on the same much derided (by Saints fans in particular) Wigan style of a few years ago. You say Saints still score some good tries and that's true. But so did Wigan back then. It didn't stop Saints fans calling it dull and not something they'd ever want to watch etc.

As a matter of fact your post absolutely adheres to what I've been saying. You're using the same statements that we Wigan fans made back then but, although generally dismissed even by fair minded Saints fans such as FTV, it's now ok because it's Saints.

I'm very much tempted to say QED.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:57 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Woolf took you from winning in style to winning by any means necessary.

Interesting. Had Holbrook not been fortunate in the draw and got Salford in a GF (a game which, by the way, was grinded out) we wouldn't be talking about "winning in style" we'd be taking about "failing every time it mattered".

Holbrook did a great job and we played some great stuff (notably with a box office player at FB in Barba). I do, however, think people have a tendency to conflate brutal defence with boring in attack - perhaps because games that aren't close are less interesting for the neutral. I don't think post-Fages Saints are at all boring to watch but I accept that neutrals don't want to watch one sided games, of which we've had a fair few.

We don't have Ben Barba - nobody has a player like that, although French and Field have shown glimpses - but I think Welsby, Dodd, Grace and even Walmsley/Paasi up front absolutely are exciting players in the way they approach the game.

We've scored 60+ points in our two games against tough sides (Catalans at home and Hull away) in bad conditions - some brilliant tries in there. I sense that latterly people are bored with a bit of dominance rather than the rugby we play ball in hand.

I also think that, whilst this is not the forum for it to be accepted, there is also a big difference in culture/approach between the Saints and Wigan teams that are being compared here. People talk about Walmsley trying to win penalties as if he invented it, but much of the criticism towards Wigan was about how they went about the game and whether it crossed the line at times. Everyone will have an opinion on that but I don't think we'll see Woolf instructing his players to recklessly endanger opponents or players being so revved up they punch unconscious players on the ground or behave in the sort of deranged manner we saw with Isa last year. I genuinely believe there are differnt cultures in place at both clubs in that regard in recent years (an exception being 2021 Bentley who at that time was getting hammer from Saints fans for his approach and ill-discipline) but, again, I acknowledge and accept that will come across as rose tinted Saints bias.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:11 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Saints fan here. I've been reading posts on here for some time and now felt compelled to register and join. I go by the username Reacher on Red Vee so those that know me (Rogues Gallery is one) know that I am reasonable and fair minded. There are also some decent posters on here- Nicky Kiss for example regularly gives Saints credit, in fact I think he is a closet Saints fan really

I understand that successful teams are there to be shot at and all other fans dislike them- Utd in the 90s and early 2000s being an example, (I am a Utd fan too) however some of the criticism that Saints are getting at the moment astounds me. This current team is outstanding and we have been for the past 3 years. Defensively it is the best team I've ever seen at Saints including the treble winning Daniel Anderson side of 2006.

What I can't get my head around is this notion that we are horrible to watch and poor in attack. Have you actually watched our games? We have posted big scores in the first 2 rounds played in poor conditions. Yes we played 12 men in both but look at the scores prior to the red cards, they were hardly game changers. We will also improve as the season continues.

Welsby and Dodd are two flair players that score tries from nothing, Dodd's kick and chase against Catalans and his brilliant step against Hull, Welsby with his brilliant kick through against Hull. We now attack both sides and in Percival have one of the best strike centres in the league. We are also missing Grace who gives us that X factor and can go the length of the field with a couple of steps.

I will agree that there were elements of last season that we were hard to watch, games won on brilliant defence and barge overs but you can see already this season a change of tactics with Welsby and Dodd having the confidence and freedom to do what they like. Lomax is also not confined to the left anymore and pops up all over the pitch.

I really can't understand the criticism we are receiving. I suppose we should be flattered really.

Defensively I’d agree in that the current Saints team is the best defensive Saints team I’ve ever seen in fact I think they are probably the best ever British RL team from a defensive point of view. I rarely if ever give a ten for anyone or any team but Saints defensive scores a good nine virtually every week for me.

I know a few Saints fans and since Holbrook left everyone of them at some point didn’t like the style of play. I was with 2 a few weeks back and one of them wasn’t going to get a season ticket because he’d lost interest due to the style of play.

I think a few people just think it’s a little ironic that after seasons of Saints fans taking the urine about our defensive tactics all of a sudden it’s so crucial and something to brag about when you are good at it.

My gripe is specifically Walmsley. A brilliant prop. Tough , hard working and not without a bit skill. Also a play actor and full time whinger. Personally I just like great players to have a bit class

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:12 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Interesting. Had Holbrook not been fortunate in the draw and got Salford in a GF (a game which, by the way, was grinded out) we wouldn't be talking about "winning in style" we'd be taking about "failing every time it mattered".

Holbrook did a great job and we played some great stuff (notably with a box office player at FB in Barba). I do, however, think people have a tendency to conflate brutal defence with boring in attack - perhaps because games that aren't close are less interesting for the neutral. I don't think post-Fages Saints are at all boring to watch but I accept that neutrals don't want to watch one sided games, of which we've had a fair few.

We don't have Ben Barba - nobody has a player like that, although French and Field have shown glimpses - but I think Welsby, Dodd, Grace and even Walmsley/Paasi up front absolutely are exciting players in the way they approach the game.

We've scored 60+ points in our two games against tough sides (Catalans at home and Hull away) in bad conditions - some brilliant tries in there. I sense that latterly people are bored with a bit of dominance rather than the rugby we play ball in hand.

I also think that, whilst this is not the forum for it to be accepted, there is also a big difference in culture/approach between the Saints and Wigan teams that are being compared here. People talk about Walmsley trying to win penalties as if he invented it, but much of the criticism towards Wigan was about how they went about the game and whether it crossed the line at times. Everyone will have an opinion on that but I don't think we'll see Woolf instructing his players to recklessly endanger opponents or players being so revved up they punch unconscious players on the ground or behave in the sort of deranged manner we saw with Isa last year. I genuinely believe there are differnt cultures in place at both clubs in that regard in recent years (an exception being 2021 Bentley who at that time was getting hammer from Saints fans for his approach and ill-discipline) but, again, I acknowledge and accept that will come across as rose tinted Saints bias.

I'd word it slightly differently. People conflate brutal defence with dull or boring attack when it isn't their team doing it. As you and others did when it was Wigan and as some here and others are doing now regarding Saints. That's exactly the point. We defended it using exactly the same reasoning you and Stu are doing here.

I'd like to take issue with your Barba statement though. I think French in particular has already shown he has everything Barba had and more and Field, in admittedly a small game sample, has strongly suggested he will follow suit. I say "and more" because, unlike Barba, they can both defend!

That said, this is another example of what I'm saying above really. As a Saint fan Barba was better. As a Wigan fan I'd have French (and probably Field in time) over Barba any day.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:17 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'd word it slightly differently. People conflate brutal defence with dull or boring attack when it isn't their team doing it. As you and others did when it was Wigan and as some here and others are doing now regarding Saints. That's exactly the point. We defended it using exactly the same reasoning you and Stu are doing here.

I'd like to take issue with your Barba statement though. I think French in particular has already shown he has everything Barba had and more and Field, in admittedly a small game sample, has strongly suggested he will follow suit. I say "and more" because, unlike Barba, they can both defend!

That said, this is another example of what I'm saying above really. As a Saint fan Barba was better. As a Wigan fan I'd have French (and probably Field in time) over Barba any day.

Barba's defence was terrible but we are talking about entertainment and Barba on his day was ridiculous. Field is lighning quick but he'll have a long way to go to match peak Barba - I hope for the sake of the league he does. I'm going to try not to scoff at the Field comparison just yet and I'll certainly reserve judgement on whether he can defend

On the French comparison - he was great in 2020 and scored 17 tries. In his MoS season Barba scored 31 and probably another 25/30 assists - he was unplayable. Unless you wanted to run at him.

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:29 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Interesting. Had Holbrook not been fortunate in the draw and got Salford in a GF (a game which, by the way, was grinded out) we wouldn't be talking about "winning in style" we'd be taking about "failing every time it mattered".

Quite possibly.

FearTheVee wrote:

I also think that, whilst this is not the forum for it to be accepted, there is also a big difference in culture/approach between the Saints and Wigan teams that are being compared here. People talk about Walmsley trying to win penalties as if he invented it, but much of the criticism towards Wigan was about how they went about the game and whether it crossed the line at times. Everyone will have an opinion on that but I don't think we'll see Woolf instructing his players to recklessly endanger opponents or players being so revved up they punch unconscious players on the ground or behave in the sort of deranged manner we saw with Isa last year. I genuinely believe there are differnt cultures in place at both clubs in that regard in recent years (an exception being 2021 Bentley who at that time was getting hammer from Saints fans for his approach and ill-discipline) but, again, I acknowledge and accept that will come across as rose tinted Saints bias.

You're right. Woolf will be telling his players to go out and shake each players hand after they tackle them in a polite and gentle manner. They will be told to be brutal in defence in the same way that we were. Have you seen Tonga play? Woolf just doesn't telegraph it like Wane did (maybe if you hadn't bottled going to Penrith they'd have done a documentary about you )

Re: Forward watch : Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:36 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Quite possibly.

You're right. Woolf will be telling his players to go out and shake each players hand after they tackle them in a polite and gentle manner. They will be told to be brutal in defence in the same way that we were. Have you seen Tonga play? Woolf just doesn't telegraph it like Wane did (maybe if you hadn't bottled going to Penrith they'd have done a documentary about you )

Of course they will be told to be brutal in defence. I don't think they will be instructed to be reckless; there is a difference but then you already knew that

Unfortunately Penrith didn't appear interested in any sort of sensible commercial arrangement to get that game played, unlike more enlightened clubs like Melbourne / Souths who buy into the concept. Which is a shame. I'm sure if we are drawn against a different club with a less obnoxious coach (see approach to World Cup) next time the game will get played wherever it needs to be played - blatant that Penrith had no intention of playing that game irrespective of what they said in public.