Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:14 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

But it seems to me that, ever since he took over, the commitment of players across the board (not just individually) has gradually slackened, and form has progressively faded – until we finally reached the nadir that was the end of last season.

Bar that Castleford game, I thought we played some decent stuff at the end of the year. Look back at the game vs Saints in the Super 8's and we took them apart.

Im not saying we were great, or that we shouldn't be better than we were, but the negativity seems to have amplified in the off-season. We weren't quite as bad as many are making out once most of our first team came back from injury.

Infact, Our win % in the league after Sam Tomkins came back with the others was in the top 2-3 in the league for that time period until the end of the season.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:59 pm  

JWarriors wrote:

Bar that Castleford game, I thought we played some decent stuff at the end of the year. Look back at the game vs Saints in the Super 8's and we took them apart.

Im not saying we were great, or that we shouldn't be better than we were, but the negativity seems to have amplified in the off-season. We weren't quite as bad as many are making out once most of our first team came back from injury.

Infact, Our win % in the league after Sam Tomkins came back with the others was in the top 2-3 in the league for that time period until the end of the season.

The last 8 games of the season we won 4 and lost 4. We are repeatedly told that this is the business end of the season so if we cant turn up then when do we turn up?
Powder puff pack and no discernible tactics are for me the primary reason why we were not a top 4 club last season and unless something is drastically occurring at the moment in pre season I don't see a top 4 next season either.
I hope that your optimism is justified and that my pessimistic view is destined for the waste bin but for me unless there is some major shake up in attitude, performance, commitment and consistency I just don't see us troubling anyone.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:19 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

The last 8 games of the season we won 4 and lost 4. We are repeatedly told that this is the business end of the season so if we cant turn up then when do we turn up?
Powder puff pack and no discernible tactics are for me the primary reason why we were not a top 4 club last season and unless something is drastically occurring at the moment in pre season I don't see a top 4 next season either.
I hope that your optimism is justified and that my pessimistic view is destined for the waste bin but for me unless there is some major shake up in attitude, performance, commitment and consistency I just don't see us troubling anyone.

Im not always dazzlingly optimistic. But I do think that we weren't far off last season. We missed out on top 4 by points difference (not league points). All things considered, looking at some of the sides we were forced to field last season, I don't think its the end of the world as much as people think. If we didn't have thee injury problems we had and lost 8 in a row, then we would have cruised into the top 4 without any trouble. And as we know, once there anything can happen on the day.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

So how does that work?
Two of Wanes "best buddies" leave and he is being accused of staying too loyal to his players.

you are perhaps taking my response out of context.... cover a few of the recent responses and you will see that my gripe is NOT with Wane, much more the under performing playing staff, especially those who earn a new contract mid-season then decide they don't need to turn up for the rest of it; ultimately I'm expecting big things from them this year.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:07 pm  

In regards to 2018 signings...Good article today in the Wigan Observer...

An Interview took place between Phil Wilkinson and Rads..Basically we are at the cap so we have no room to sign any more players for the 2018 season...it states this is because we are paying the younger players alot more because of appearances..

It just seems like to me we are chucking money at underperforming players constantly..If you look at how big our squad was around 2013-2015 it just seems like we havent got half of what we used to have...

Also i thought Sam Tomkins Salary and George Williams salary didnt count on the cap??????

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:09 pm  

We must have a ridiculous amount of overpaid players.

How are we still at the cap when McIlorum has been released?? Assuming Sarginson has taken Gelling’s salary (maybe a bit more), MM was surely on quite a hefty one?

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:11 pm  

This is exactly my thought unless the club are not telling us something yet...it just seems to be abit funny that the squad numbers haven't been released yet. :/ :/ :/

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:35 pm  

Ive thought for some time we need to be more ruthless as a club and probably backing the right horses when young players are coming through the system. It’s all well and good stating how proud the club is if it’s wonderful youth set up, but then bemoaning it because we are having to pay them the going rate to retain them or more even when they are not good enough to nail down a first team place.

Perfect example Marshall and Davies. If you add them to Manfreddi and Burgess that is 4 first team wingers. They former picked up new deals last year if I remember rightly so we have 2 wingers who when we are at full strength will be on good money to sit in the stands. No way in a Capped sport do you need 4 first team quality wingers in your squad.

3 should be the max.

I understand there is an issue over Manfreddi and maybe long term given his desire to test himself in the NRL a question over Burgess however IF Manfreddi does not recover Davies steps in and if Burgess hoes at the end of next year, we replace him from outside the club unless another young winger is ready to step forward in a years time.

I look at our squad and for me it is massive, yet filled with some very average players or players who are never going to get a chance or will play a bit part and move on like Tierney has had to do.

Maybe MM going is an indication that this is changing and we are being more ruthless.

I still believe if we alter our style of play we will have a good run at all the trophies next year, that for me is the single biggest issue, however I also feel the unrealistic craving to have a full Wigan born team is also a potential weakness.

You need to let some go earlier, yes they may come back to bite you, but so be it you have to use the cap to your advantage not disadvantage or punishment because we want to retain our home grown players and spend first team level player cap on them to sit in the stands and get a run once in a blue moon.

Last year our strength in depth was talked about with great enthusiasm and excitement. No other club could live with the injuries etc. We still ended up with bugger all and playing some awful rugby once the injury crisis kicked in.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:15 am  

Tomkins and Williams, first 70 grand or so count on cap. Lockers again I think gets a percentage of his contract off cap. I imagine FPN is now being paid in full by us, the first part of his contract was only partly paid by Wigan the rest by Canberra. You then have players who re signed. At the time we was SL grand finale winners and World club champions so that probably inflated the money being offered from other clubs. Escarre, and MrT where at the time in my oppinion on form our best back and best foward , Powell from whats been said has been given a large increase then you have the younger players Davies, Marshall, Wells, Ganson and so on. I would have still thought we would have spare cap?
I think when Joel, Sam T, Burguess and Tommy where coming back most where happy ... the club could have let them go somwhere else but can you imagine the meltdown if Sam T had ripped SL up for Wire or Tommy for Saints? I didnt feel any bad vibes the night Joel came back or disapointment? When we reatained Williams whos stats still out shone most of his counterparts even thoughbehind a beaten team. It was the right thing to do signing him and that may still be the case only time will tell.
We have been unlucky with returning players but I dont think any of that was clear
a lot of the negatives are in hindsight.
The Gelling leaving again was not the clubs fault and left field, which leaves Micky Mac a toss up as to which story is true but if we are up to cap that answers that.
We need our players to perform to the level they can, if they do we are still a quality side with plenty potentially great youngsters as back up.
We should be better in the pack Flowers back, Clubb and Joel with full pre seasons are all due periods free of injury. The reprorts say FPN Sutton and T are leaner and in good shape. Faz wasnt great last year Bateman and Lockers both picks for England. Powell if at 9 needs to play 80 Im not convinced hes the answer at half. Tommy was no improvement on Smith but again our pack was crap for periods mist games.
Tomkins and Escarre could be great if given the chance together and with Williams and Lockers that if all can stay fit for large chunks of the season should give us some threat. Will the coach do that? I think he will have/need to at some point I think this may be difficult for him 8f we dont improve in a big way. Gildart looks like a future GB player if he steps up another level. Despite the mixed reaction Sarge if fit may be the one who bucks the trend on returning players maybe the lower expectations will help. Was Budgie carrying an injury? If at full speed I would not have any other winger in SL the one who may make me think about that if fit is Manflreid oh to have both fully fit!!i. Davies looks a massive prospect pace and a great work rate. Marshall is just a natural finisher both played well last year and on occasions they was let down by more experienced and better payed team mates. The obvious two young guns to kick on are Wells and Ganson but we have a host of players just behind them.
I didnt mean this to go on and i wondered off topic, we have a lot of ifs and buts an intersting season for us I hope!

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:25 am  

jonh wrote:

Ive thought for some time we need to be more ruthless as a club and probably backing the right horses when young players are coming through the system. It’s all well and good stating how proud the club is if it’s wonderful youth set up, but then bemoaning it because we are having to pay them the going rate to retain them or more even when they are not good enough to nail down a first team place.

Perfect example Marshall and Davies. If you add them to Manfreddi and Burgess that is 4 first team wingers. They former picked up new deals last year if I remember rightly so we have 2 wingers who when we are at full strength will be on good money to sit in the stands. No way in a Capped sport do you need 4 first team quality wingers in your squad.

3 should be the max.

I understand there is an issue over Manfreddi and maybe long term given his desire to test himself in the NRL a question over Burgess however IF Manfreddi does not recover Davies steps in and if Burgess hoes at the end of next year, we replace him from outside the club unless another young winger is ready to step forward in a years time.

I look at our squad and for me it is massive, yet filled with some very average players or players who are never going to get a chance or will play a bit part and move on like Tierney has had to do.

Maybe MM going is an indication that this is changing and we are being more ruthless.

I still believe if we alter our style of play we will have a good run at all the trophies next year, that for me is the single biggest issue, however I also feel the unrealistic craving to have a full Wigan born team is also a potential weakness.

You need to let some go earlier, yes they may come back to bite you, but so be it you have to use the cap to your advantage not disadvantage or punishment because we want to retain our home grown players and spend first team level player cap on them to sit in the stands and get a run once in a blue moon.

Last year our strength in depth was talked about with great enthusiasm and excitement. No other club could live with the injuries etc. We still ended up with bugger all and playing some awful rugby once the injury crisis kicked in.

I agree with most of that though not with the they all have to come from Wigan miff. Both the incoming players are not from Wigan or our youth set up........
Neither are Flower, T, FPN, Clubb , Tommy, Baetman or Ecarre thats nine players who will be in or around our starting first choice line up. Our youth is great and I agree with your other points fully . The Manfreidi and Burgess situation probably undlines the young wingers both being given contracts?