Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:11 am  

RichieS wrote:

Yes, I honestly don't think Leeds struggle balancing the likes of Parcell, Hall, Watkins, Myler and Cutherbertson etc with Handley, Golding, Singleton, Walker and the like...they are likely to have a comfortable buffer too and I am unsure if they even have a Marquee?

Warrington have a selection of very good Rugby League players (Tyrone Roberts, BMM, Hill and Goodwin) and a select few youngsters (Currie, Patton, King) whilst still having space to bring in Charnley. Whilst we have a good squad, I feel like our wage management and offering of contracts is a little off-the-pace. I believe Joe Burgess, Joel T, Sarge, Powell, TT all probably earn way more than they actually are worth added to the fact we have TWO marquee players and are now faced with losing Bateman, Sam, Gildart and Sutton to the NRL simply because we can't offer better contratcs. IMO I believe, GW is worthy of Marquee, simply to prevent him being a marquee at any other SL club or losing him to the NRL. I think SOL has earnt the right to be a high earner and whilst some of the players above may be showing good form, they never really become good value for money.

Isn't a lot this dealing with hypotheticals?

Do we really know the salaries of Burgess, Joel, Sarge etc? And how would you rate that list of players compared to other players in the league at other clubs? On form Burgess and Sarge have the potential to push for international spots, previously capped and still only young.
SOL total salary doesn't count on the cap does it? He's a 10 year 1 club player.
NRL simply for better contracts? Is this entirely true? Surely the opportunity to play in the best league in the world is a factor, and of course have the lifestyle Oz can offer. Hypothetical to just say it's all for money only.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:16 pm  

I remember Rads saying he had chatted with Leeds wrt the cap and they have a very structured system of pay bands dependant on international caps, experience etc. so all the players know that if they want to get to the next level they have to improve their game. I just guess that at Leeds the players think they are getting a fair slice of the pie based on the wage structure as they have a fair idea what the more senior players are on. Of course there is still the fact that someone who is considered a squad player at the likes of Wigan, Saints and Leeds will be considered a starting 13 player at a lower club and hence be able to demand a larger salary there. Ultimately it depends whether you value money or winners medals more from your career.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:45 pm  

Isn't a lot this dealing with hypotheticals?

Do we really know the salaries of Burgess, Joel, Sarge etc? And how would you rate that list of players compared to other players in the league at other clubs? On form Burgess and Sarge have the potential to push for international spots, previously capped and still only young.
SOL total salary doesn't count on the cap does it? He's a 10 year 1 club player.
NRL simply for better contracts? Is this entirely true? Surely the opportunity to play in the best league in the world is a factor, and of course have the lifestyle Oz can offer. Hypothetical to just say it's all for money only.

Of course, it is all hypothetical. I have no idea what salary any of the players are on, or even if as you state, some of the wages do not count on the cap. However, it would appear we renegotiated contracts in the middle of last season (TT, Joel, Escare) and it made recruitment very difficult. Now, even after releasing Micky Mc and FPN, we are using the cap space to renegotiate better deals for certain players to keep them in a Wigan shirt. I would not like to draw comparisons with the players I mention at Wigan to players elsewhere, they all have their merits and flaws, however, I would say certain other clubs clearly get better value for cap space than we do.

dr_feelgood wrote:

I remember Rads saying he had chatted with Leeds wrt the cap and they have a very structured system of pay bands dependant on international caps, experience etc. so all the players know that if they want to get to the next level they have to improve their game. I just guess that at Leeds the players think they are getting a fair slice of the pie based on the wage structure as they have a fair idea what the more senior players are on. Of course there is still the fact that someone who is considered a squad player at the likes of Wigan, Saints and Leeds will be considered a starting 13 player at a lower club and hence be able to demand a larger salary there. Ultimately it depends whether you value money or winners medals more from your career.

This is exactly true. The payscale/bands are very fair and reward the players fairly. I do believe the reason we didn't actually sign Liam Sutcliffe from Leeds was because re-signed with Leeds on the next band up after being previously told due to injury and lack of games he would be offered a similar contract to what he was on. I personally do like the way Leeds have always done business.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:58 pm  

I remember Rads not long ago saying we were right up to the cap, how close to the cap he means remains to be seen but as the old saying goes there’s no smoke without fire and I’m starting to get the feeling this rumour has more legs than we give it credit for.

I don’t think this deal makes sense to anyone. Letting arguably our best player go? On the face of it the common sense thing to do would be to lower his salary but if he continues his form can we really justify it? There would be no reason not to take up the final year option which in turn would mean the same wage. Even at 29 it makes no sense to release him to Catalans.

For Sam it doesn’t make sense either, he’s just finding some superb form the likes of which we haven’t seen since before he left for NZW. Catalans under McNamara seem to be going backwards not forwards and they are a long long way off being where Wigan are, probably a few years after retirement for Sam before they could actually challenge. Does he really want to finish his career at a second rate club who’s only hope is to survive the Super 8’s?

If he is released who do we spend the extra money on? Sutton? Really? I’d love to see Bateman retained but if he wants to go to the NRL I don’t think you could stand in his way, same for Gildart so for me I don’t envisage the club spending extra wages on them unless assurances are gained. There would then possibly be 3 relatively big to reasonable earners off the cap and a huge void to fill which I’d personally hope is filled with a proper 7 and a Luke Thompson/Liam Watts type prop forward.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:55 am  

Grimmy wrote:

I don't think a 30+ year old Sam Tomkins is worth one of our two marquee spots. I'd retain him if he will accept a salary that isn't marquee money. Otherwise, let him go and look to the NRL for a marquee 7 to partner Williams in the halves.

Been offered 4 years at Catalans would Wigan give him 4.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:48 pm  

Ashton Bears wrote:

Been offered 4 years at Catalans would Wigan give him 4.

That being the case, I hope this is a negotiating position from Tomkins.

I wouldn't give him four as a marquee player, but I think he's showing his worth this season, so looking to secure a longer contract isn't unreasonable.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:13 pm  

Ashton Bears wrote:

Been offered 4 years at Catalans would Wigan give him 4.

Risky IMO unless the salary is low due to his injury history and age. Surely you can't offer a player a long contract on the basis of him being on form for the past 8 games. He was injured/decent for years prior to that, which may be a more accurate estimate of what we can expect of him in his 30s.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:43 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

Risky IMO unless the salary is low due to his injury history and age. Surely you can't offer a player a long contract on the basis of him being on form for the past 8 games. He was injured/decent for years prior to that, which may be a more accurate estimate of what we can expect of him in his 30s.

Love Sam as a player. Offered so much to our team, especially in his first spell before he left for the NRL and ended up plagued with injuries. Even now his game management and influence is massive on our team. Saying that I think if he wants marquee money then I'm afraid we need to see who else is out there. Let's really sign a marquee player, offer a big name big money, someone younger can not on the decline.

I'd offer Sam a fair wage for his age and ability, and something which has so much value, a job after his playing days to keep him at the club.

[DaveO]

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:56 pm  

The successful Leeds side of the Sinfield era had a big thing going for it and that was a settled squad with key players like him, Burrows and Mcquire there for a number of years. As others have said Leeds have this pay scale wage structure and for them the benefit over the years has been a more stable squad. Wigan have gone in for this as well as Rads has said but we don't seem to be getting the same benefit. If anything it is working against us as younger players such as Powell get a pay rise but we still attract the vultures after our best players and more to the point seemingly can't fend them off if we wanted to as the cap space is limited.

So here we are at Wigan with rumours that an equally influential player may be leaving and one the coach has just handed the goal kicking duties to (an issue not addressed since Richards left until now) and we look to have a potent weapon we have missed the last couple of seasons. No sooner is he back from injury on form but the rumour is he is leaving! Wane must be tearing his hair out if there is anything in this.

As to this being a chance for one last big payday, Sam just turned 29 in March. He's not "old" and is clearly offerting the team a lot. He can't just be replaced by Escare as if this not going to affect the team for the worse. If the club does let him go and cites letting him leave for a last big payday you have to ask for whose benefit is the club being run? The club and its fans or the players and their agents?

I always thought the idea was to assemble the best squad you could to entertain the fans and win things and not let a key player leave as soon as someone comes sniffing just because you want to do the player a favour. We have an option on another year, Sam agreed to this option so we should take it up.

The club should get this sorted and issue a statement given it's now basically official Les Cats view that they want him.

It's also interesting that a club like Les Cats think it is worth a punt at prising a key player away from Wigan whereas we never seem to go chasing other clubs contracted players.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:11 pm  

I would be happy for Sam to retain his marquee player status as I think he's a vital player for us. Ian Lenagan may be less happy however as he would be the one effectively funding his salary (unless we've significantly improved our profit margin since he signed from NZ Warriors). He probably would be even less enthusiastic given Sam has been injured for so long.