I'm amazed there's actually a debate going on here about the relative merits of Willie Isa.
The guy doesn't have any of note.
It's fine to have him as backup in the squad so long as he only appears in the first team on rare occasions. Ditto Tautai, Navarette, Powell and Sarginson.
I've nothing against these guys personally, and it may be that they are all on low and affordable wages. But the issue for me is that all five of them now appear regularly in the first 13, which surely goes a long way to explaining why we're already out of the running in 2019.
Whatever he gets paid it’s too much, so yes an expensive waste of money, you appear to be the all seeing eye maybe you can tell us what he earns? Playing for 80 mins is all good and well but what did he contribute in those 80 mins?
Which bit of "whatever he earns" makes you think I know? So don't start your "all seeing eye" nonsense, your throne who obviously knows everything. What I know is that he's contributed massively over the last 3 years to grand final wins and WCC's by playing 30 games a season whilst others.were injured. Played 80minutes more often than not Played in whatever role he's been asked sometimes playing 2nd row, prop and centre in same game. And Sunday when smithies, partington and borough were flagging and could hardly make a tackle between them around the 50min Mark he was still on the field for 80mins doing as much as he could and making 30+ tackles and 15/20 drives (after playing 80mins Friday again, and at Wakey and at Cas etc). His ( and Tommy's btw) efforts on Friday and Monday were outstanding whatever you make think of the quality. End of the game Monday he looked like he could hardly walk he was that knackered, but I'll bet he's ready to go next Saturday. So yeah, I do think that a dismissive post that indicates someone's earning too much money when you've no idea what he's on never mind the effort he puts in for that money is a bit rich. At certain points in 2016 when Injuries were kicking in, those kind of efforts kept us in the chase for the grand final we then go on to win Not getting picked for the WCC but not sulking and carrying on playing 80mins week in week out when required that helps us to a CC final and stops us getting dragged into a relegation/middle 8 fight in 2017. Playing 80mins every week in 2018 up until getting a season ending injury (in August ish?) Helped keep us on track for a semi final and a go at the grand final. And playing 80mins every week whilst 5/6/7/8 other players are missing week on week is helping us stay out of a relegation fight.
Doesn't make the 13 when farell fit Possibly may not get into 17 if everyone fit (although more than likely he'd get a bench spot). But a brilliant club man and perfect squad player for the past 4 years.
I'm amazed there's actually a debate going on here about the relative merits of Willie Isa.
The guy doesn't have any of note.
It's fine to have him as backup in the squad so long as he only appears in the first team on rare occasions. Ditto Tautai, Navarette, Powell and Sarginson.
I've nothing against these guys personally, and it may be that they are all on low and affordable wages. But the issue for me is that all five of them now appear regularly in the first 13, which surely goes a long way to explaining why we're already out of the running in 2019.
Maybe there are too many of them But we need a couple of them, and no way on earth would I put isa in the same bracket as Tautai and navarette.
And sorry cruncher, but don't agree one bit about Sarginson (and arguably powell although that's a border line one).
It's the Forsyth, field, clubbs, arguably shorrocks (up until now and I'm still not convinced by a long chalk) tautais and gansons etc that were not getting money's worth from that we should be moving on. We held on too long to the likes of bretherton and a few others, we should have been more clinical with a few more of these.
Isa will never set the world on fire we know that. But he’s definitely worth a squad place and he earns what the club think he’s worth. What does he bring? We’ll not skill that’s for sure but he rarely misses a tackle, plays for the badge with pride and enthusiasm and gives 100% effort at all times. He wouldn’t be in my 1st choice 17 but he’s certainly useful as a squad player if he’s not costing a fortune.
Maybe there are too many of them But we need a couple of them, and no way on earth would I put isa in the same bracket as Tautai and navarette.
And sorry cruncher, but don't agree one bit about Sarginson (and arguably powell although that's a border line one).
It's the Forsyth, field, clubbs, arguably shorrocks (up until now and I'm still not convinced by a long chalk) tautais and gansons etc that were not getting money's worth from that we should be moving on. We held on too long to the likes of bretherton and a few others, we should have been more clinical with a few more of these.
Clubb, Ganson, Forsyth - yes, yes, yes, they can all go. The latter two rarely get selected anyway, so they'd be no loss at all. I don't know about Shorrocks as I've seen so little of him. It's the other underachievers I mention, the ones who play regularly yet who are nowhere near that mythical benchmark, 'Wigan standard', who really lower our talent averages.
Add to that our legion of walking wounded - Lockers, Farrell, Manfredi and Flower (this is another category we can put Clubb in), and our past-it vets, Lockers again and Tommy, and you have a team that is mid-table at best ... even at an abysmal time like this when there are only two really good teams in the competition.
Someone mentioned the heady days when our utility men were players like Lydon and Panapa, men who would be marquee standard today. I know we can't get back to that thanks to the cap and our spending restrictions, but at present we have a first team that is two-thirds substandard. That explains our position in the league to me before we even contemplate Lammy's failures.
If we survive this season, we have lots and lots of work to do on the recruitment front. Whether we'll be able to is another matter.
Big Steve wrote: The Internet has provided some wonderful creativity, opportunities and knowledge sharing but it has also given a worldwide forum for people you would leave a full pint behind in the pub to avoid having to listen to them.
aboveusonlypie... If you don't bother to go to the game when you live in the locality then you are not really a fan and therefore your views are invalid. It's simple.
Clubb, Ganson, Forsyth - yes, yes, yes, they can all go. The latter two rarely get selected anyway, so they'd be no loss at all. I don't know about Shorrocks as I've seen so little of him. It's the other underachievers I mention, the ones who play regularly yet who are nowhere near that mythical benchmark, 'Wigan standard', who really lower our talent averages.
Add to that our legion of walking wounded - Lockers, Farrell, Manfredi and Flower (this is another category we can put Clubb in), and our past-it vets, Lockers again and Tommy, and you have a team that is mid-table at best ... even at an abysmal time like this when there are only two really good teams in the competition.
Someone mentioned the heady days when our utility men were players like Lydon and Panapa, men who would be marquee standard today. I know we can't get back to that thanks to the cap and our spending restrictions, but at present we have a first team that is two-thirds substandard. That explains our position in the league to me before we even contemplate Lammy's failures.
If we survive this season, we have lots and lots of work to do on the recruitment front. Whether we'll be able to is another matter.
I'm pretty sure that a regular poster, no name no pack drill, has said that contracts are easy dissolve.... Shouldn't be an issue.
Clubb, Ganson, Forsyth - yes, yes, yes, they can all go. The latter two rarely get selected anyway, so they'd be no loss at all. I don't know about Shorrocks as I've seen so little of him. It's the other underachievers I mention, the ones who play regularly yet who are nowhere near that mythical benchmark, 'Wigan standard', who really lower our talent averages.
Add to that our legion of walking wounded - Lockers, Farrell, Manfredi and Flower (this is another category we can put Clubb in), and our past-it vets, Lockers again and Tommy, and you have a team that is mid-table at best ... even at an abysmal time like this when there are only two really good teams in the competition.
Someone mentioned the heady days when our utility men were players like Lydon and Panapa, men who would be marquee standard today. I know we can't get back to that thanks to the cap and our spending restrictions, but at present we have a first team that is two-thirds substandard. That explains our position in the league to me before we even contemplate Lammy's failures.
If we survive this season, we have lots and lots of work to do on the recruitment front. Whether we'll be able to is another matter.
And whilst agreeing in sentiment if we have 2 x problems currently Quality/Quantity
Quality - Not enough (Certainly out on the field not helped by injuries) Quantity - Too much of SOME and not enough of the OTHER (Strange answer but basically carrying too many players who are not giving us anything and not enough of the ones that are giving us a Lot i.e. consistent 80mins week in week out).
In the current situation we need to get more of both The Quality will come back with the return of the Farrell's/Lockers etc. And over the past 4-6 weeks or so we've missed the Flower's/Greenwood's/Manfredi/Sarge and even Sammutt etc.
Quantity - I feel because we are carrying too many players who are either inured too much or "Not good enough" (For want of a better phrase) or don't play Big minutes it seriously hinders our ability to strengthen in Quality.
We are not getting any or significant Minutes from :- Clubb (77 games in 4 seasons - And plays 15/20 mins per game) Lockers ( Averaging 20 games a season Farrell (Yes, we need to think about this and I'm a BIG fan) Navarette (Not played Bug games, doesn't play Big mins) Tautai (Enough said - A Mixture of not enough games, too many suspensions, Injuries and then when he's on not enough good performances) Field Ganson Forsyth Hankinson Shorrocks (Up until recently I bet he'd played 5/10 games for us in 3 years? He's 23 and played about 40 first class games!!!) Wells (Played 16 games for Wigan by now which will be his 4th season).
Of the above 10/11 players mentioned we should have the equivalent of maybe 6 But of those 6 there needs to be more quality and/or more games/minutes played to contribute and take some pressure of the others.
If this was Baseball (Or MoneyBall as the film was titled) someone would work out the value per £ each player was worth (including quality as well as quantity). Would be an interesting exercise!
Big Steve wrote: The Internet has provided some wonderful creativity, opportunities and knowledge sharing but it has also given a worldwide forum for people you would leave a full pint behind in the pub to avoid having to listen to them.
aboveusonlypie... If you don't bother to go to the game when you live in the locality then you are not really a fan and therefore your views are invalid. It's simple.
Which bit of "whatever he earns" makes you think I know? So don't start your "all seeing eye" nonsense, your throne who obviously knows everything. What I know is that he's contributed massively over the last 3 years to grand final wins and WCC's by playing 30 games a season whilst others.were injured. Played 80minutes more often than not Played in whatever role he's been asked sometimes playing 2nd row, prop and centre in same game. And Sunday when smithies, partington and borough were flagging and could hardly make a tackle between them around the 50min Mark he was still on the field for 80mins doing as much as he could and making 30+ tackles and 15/20 drives (after playing 80mins Friday again, and at Wakey and at Cas etc). His ( and Tommy's btw) efforts on Friday and Monday were outstanding whatever you make think of the quality. End of the game Monday he looked like he could hardly walk he was that knackered, but I'll bet he's ready to go next Saturday. So yeah, I do think that a dismissive post that indicates someone's earning too much money when you've no idea what he's on never mind the effort he puts in for that money is a bit rich. At certain points in 2016 when Injuries were kicking in, those kind of efforts kept us in the chase for the grand final we then go on to win Not getting picked for the WCC but not sulking and carrying on playing 80mins week in week out when required that helps us to a CC final and stops us getting dragged into a relegation/middle 8 fight in 2017. Playing 80mins every week in 2018 up until getting a season ending injury (in August ish?) Helped keep us on track for a semi final and a go at the grand final. And playing 80mins every week whilst 5/6/7/8 other players are missing week on week is helping us stay out of a relegation fight.
Doesn't make the 13 when farell fit Possibly may not get into 17 if everyone fit (although more than likely he'd get a bench spot). But a brilliant club man and perfect squad player for the past 4 years.
This. In a salary cap sport, ‘squad’ players are invaluable. There are for worse players in that squad than Isa in terms of what they offer overall to the cause, over a season. I’d even be tempted to suggest that with Farrell’s injury record over the last 5 or so seasons, be is better value for money than Faz.