Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:45 am  

homme vaste wrote:

Absolute rubbish, Oledski is miles ahead of Havard.

Depends what Rogues means by young. Oledzki is 22 whereas Havard has just turned 20. Oledzki has been around Leeds first team for 4 years and is going in to his fifth year whereas Havard is going in to his second and has just had his first pre season in first team rugby.

If you bung Havard in with guys like Wilson, Holroyd and Doro who are his age and have as much experience as him, then he’s he’s the best young prop in that bracket IMO. A guy like Oledzki is reasonably experienced in comparison and probably gets lumped in with guys like Partington, Lees, English etc and he’s obviously the best in that sort of age/experience bracket.

Give it five years and we’ll have an answer to who is the better prop from Oledzki and Havard. They’ll both be regular internationals IMO.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:50 am  

Wigg'n wrote:

Oledski is quality, absolute unit and has the skills and attitude too.

Last night he made 44 tackles, 188m and 22 carries

Singleton made 20 tackles, 60m and 11 carries
Bullock 15 tackles, 102m and 11 carries
Havard 35 tackles, 86m and 13 carries
Clubb 15 tackles, 58m and 6 carries

Yet some people think our props are just there to defend and for their 'mobility'

Much better from Bullock last night with the ball. Clubbs tackling stats are scandalous considering all the defending we did in that first spell of his.

It’s probably too much, too young but I’d be starting Havard and looking to get 60-70 minutes out of him. He’s fit as a fiddle and was doing big minutes last year, so I see no reason why he can’t now. He’s already our best prop IMO and it already looks unlikely that he’ll be here for anymore than a couple of years, so let’s use him whilst we have him.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:58 am  

Oledzki has only really started to perform consistently in the last 12 months, and Havard definitely seems more consistent than Mik was at 20, but there's not much between them in terms of potential.

Anyway, it's not an Oledzki that you're missing, it's a Prior, Hill, or Taylor.

When Singleton is probably your 'leader' in the front row, you know you have an issue.

Bullock seems decent though, better than Singleton IMO. Nice 'assist' for the Hardaker try last night

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:59 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Much better from Bullock last night with the ball. Clubbs tackling stats are scandalous considering all the defending we did in that first spell of his.

It’s probably too much, too young but I’d be starting Havard and looking to get 60-70 minutes out of him. He’s fit as a fiddle and was doing big minutes last year, so I see no reason why he can’t now. He’s already our best prop IMO and it already looks unlikely that he’ll be here for anymore than a couple of years, so let’s use him whilst we have him.

Agreed mate, good point.

If we're not going to bulk him up we should at least make him into a big minute prop. Currently we're doing neither with him.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:46 am  

Those stats are fine and I wouldn't dispute them one bit. However, you also have to look at how many minutes each prop played.
The SKY folk were saying Oledski played 80 mins. None of our props came near that. Singleton was hardly seen 2nd half, Clubb played his usual 10 mins first half. Bullock was off the field for ages but when out there had a much better game.

I do think when Lam gets his players back next week with Farrell and Isa in the pack then he'll be able to have backs who will take the ball up as this has been our tactic for over 10 years. Years ago when we had Charnley, Gelling and Co they used to make over 100 mtrs and sometime 200. Very often in a set coming out of our 20 a prop would only take up one carry, the rest being done by backs and a scoot by the 9.

When we have French, Manfredi then Marshall back there will be pace that no other club can match. Later when Field is available other teams won't by bothering how to beat our pack, they'l be more concerned as to how to stop our pace men.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:53 pm  

Wigg'n wrote:

Oledski is quality, absolute unit and has the skills and attitude too.

Last night he made 44 tackles, 188m and 22 carries

Singleton made 20 tackles, 60m and 11 carries
Bullock 15 tackles, 102m and 11 carries
Havard 35 tackles, 86m and 13 carries
Clubb 15 tackles, 58m and 6 carries

Yet some people think our props are just there to defend and for their 'mobility'

Its no wonder we don't see any attacking rugby with stats like the above.

I do think a part of it though is the tactics / style of play.
- We do one up rugby which makes it easy for the defence
- We run straight at the A and B defenders which makes it easy for the defence
- We do not seem to catch the ball at pace on the gain line. Always stood still / way behind the gain line

Look how effective Smithies looked last night hitting those lines at second row, off a half, at pace, in a gap rather than at a defensive wall.

Running in pairs, at pace, away from the A and B defenders isn't too hard to implement.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:58 pm  

Father Ted wrote:

Those stats are fine and I wouldn't dispute them one bit. However, you also have to look at how many minutes each prop played.
The SKY folk were saying Oledski played 80 mins. None of our props came near that. Singleton was hardly seen 2nd half, Clubb played his usual 10 mins first half. Bullock was off the field for ages but when out there had a much better game.

I do think when Lam gets his players back next week with Farrell and Isa in the pack then he'll be able to have backs who will take the ball up as this has been our tactic for over 10 years. Years ago when we had Charnley, Gelling and Co they used to make over 100 mtrs and sometime 200. Very often in a set coming out of our 20 a prop would only take up one carry, the rest being done by backs and a scoot by the 9.

When we have French, Manfredi then Marshall back there will be pace that no other club can match. Later when Field is available other teams won't by bothering how to beat our pack, they'l be more concerned as to how to stop our pace men.

Why couldn't we have done that last night? Regardless of how is comin back, we still had a fullback, 2 wingers and 2 centres playing...

Wasn't Isa our top meters maker?

What you are saying is true if one of the following is correct:
1 - Because of the personell in the backs - Lam adjusted the tactics and told the backs not to take the ball up (Not sure that is true)
2 - The personell in the backs decided to not take the ball up - When we get the players above back they will (Not sure that is true)
3 - The personell in the backs took the ball up but when the players return it will be more effective (Probably)

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:37 pm  

nathan_rugby wrote:

Its no wonder we don't see any attacking rugby with stats like the above.

I do think a part of it though is the tactics / style of play.
- We do one up rugby which makes it easy for the defence
- We run straight at the A and B defenders which makes it easy for the defence
- We do not seem to catch the ball at pace on the gain line. Always stood still / way behind the gain line

Look how effective Smithies looked last night hitting those lines at second row, off a half, at pace, in a gap rather than at a defensive wall.

Running in pairs, at pace, away from the A and B defenders isn't too hard to implement.

We spend so long battling to get our of our own 20/30m at times, it's impossible to attack from those areas (unless you're stupid). We just get stuck in the cycle of 5 drives and a kick which is what we did most of last night. Or just waiting for the opposition to make a mistake or get a penalty. When you come up against very disciplined sides you just won't get those and we'll just be stuck in our own half the whole game (see Leeds CC game last year).

We made only 5 offloads all game. 1 led to a try. That either means we're playing very conservative rugby and under instruction not to offload (why, against a side with loads of injuries?) or we're consistently losing the collision and players can't offload.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:07 pm  

I think that the ‘powers that be’ know we are just one dominant front rower off being a side capable of winning trophies, hence the signing of George Burgess which was, arguably, the final piece in the jigsaw. That didn’t come off, as we all know. We were desperately unlucky with GB but, for the time being, we carry on as we are doing, allowing the young lads to develop. I held off posting at the beginning of the season that youngsters like Smithies, Havard, Partington, Byrne and Shorrocks need to step up to the table and start to show us what they are capable of. I’m glad I did because I feel that they’re now coming into their own. They’re not the finished article by any means but most of the sides in the competition would gladly take two or three of them off our hands given the opportunity. IL & Co will know the score and I would be very surprised if a number of props hadn’t been scrutinised with a view to one of them coming to Wigan to bolster the pack. Financial constraints due to covid may mean that we have to be patient but it will happen.

Re: The Prop Problem : Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:13 am  

Singleton 9 carries for 66m average of 7m, 32 tackles

Clubb 3 carries for 35m average of 12m, 12 tackles

Bullock 3 carries 30m average 10m, 14 tackles

Partington 11 carries 60m average 6m, 34 tackles

Byrne 12 caries 66m average of 6, 21 tackles

Havard 5 for 32m average of 6 25 tackles

Shorrocks 8 for 38 avg 5, 31 tackles.