Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:41 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

I can't remember the other instance, if you know when it happened I can have a look back.

I've got the document with the rule on it but I'm rubbish at uploading photos to here. I agree that they should do a better job of publicising the current rules. Here's the wording:

8. Offside at the Play the Ball
...
8.3 All defending players are required to be level with or behind the front foot of the referee with the exception being in the final 10 metres when the following apply:
....
8.3 (iii) Defenders cannot slap at the arm or ball of the dummy half as the ball is being picked up.

I still think Faz did nothing wrong. I may a bit pedantic, but the rule says ‘as the ball is picked up.’ Roby had picked it up and was in that act of passing when Faz grabbed the arm. Wouldn’t have changed the result in any way but I’ll be looking at this rule being applied consistently in future, particularly by James Child.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:13 pm  

Child is a home referee.
We've benefited from some of his more outlandish decisions at the DW.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:14 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Thanks again mate. Appalling that these rules are in force without them being available to the watching public. Is it any wonder referees get bagged when the RFL can't even be bothered to update their own rules! I despair at the incompetence in our game at times.

It's possible the other incident took place within the 10 metres too which brings up another problem with this rule. On the line I can (sort of) understand although it hasn't been a problem in the 100 plus years that the game has been in existence. That's a debate for another time though. The problem is that the game is effectively being played by different rules on 20% of the pitch than it is on the other 80%. That's simply bizarre. How is striking the ball on the 10 metre line any different than doing it on the 11 metre mark? Yet one is legal and the other not.

I genuinely think we've reached a point where the meddling in the rules has gone beyond reason. There are many I completely disagree with; sending a decision up to the video ref as try or no try, the whole ridiculous not allowing stripping of the ball with 2 in the tackle, then allowing it if the other players fall off, then not allowing again all in consecutive seasons and the ever changing interpretation of the obstruction rule season on season for example.i think it's time we decided on one set of rules, publish them and maybe even stick with them for more than 10 minutes at a time!

It's a lot easier to do it when defending your goalline because the man playing the ball isn't in your way if you are to one side with your foot on the goalline. Anywhere else on the pitch you would either have to be not square, or the hooker would have to pick the ball up very slowly, for you to do the same thing. It's inconsistent with other areas of the pitch, but it is a good rule IMO. Sometimes these rules change because one player works out a way around them, then everyone copies him. It was the same with the situation we had a few years ago when players worked out that playing the ball into the defender at the back of the ruck would gain them an offside penalty. Everyone started doing it so the rules had to be adjusted.

Other similar loopholes I think could come up in the next few years:

- If the ball hits the referee or a trainer then the team with territorial advantage (i.e the team nearest to their opponent's try line) get the turnover. Nothing to stop a team deliberately passing the ball into the ref to get a fresh set of 6 as it stands.

- High tackles are penalised even when the attacker is falling. Nothing to stop an attacker deliberately losing his feet last second to draw a high tackle penalty (apart from self preservation )

- There is no rule against a team running over their own dead ball line. Teams with a narrow lead tend to grubber into touch with a minute left and defend the set. It would be far more effective in most situations to waste more time by running all the way back (even if it's 90 metres), dancing around for a bit until a defender gets near, then going over the dead ball line. The clock then continues to run down even more whilst the touch judges run back to the halfway. That could probably kill a minute or more, especially as defences won't react straight away whilst they haven't seen the tactic before. Hooter goes without the opposition getting their last set.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:37 pm  

Two matches for Isa, KPP got a caution for his late hit

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:29 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

It's a lot easier to do it when defending your goalline because the man playing the ball isn't in your way if you are to one side with your foot on the goalline. Anywhere else on the pitch you would either have to be not square, or the hooker would have to pick the ball up very slowly, for you to do the same thing. It's inconsistent with other areas of the pitch, but it is a good rule IMO. Sometimes these rules change because one player works out a way around them, then everyone copies him. It was the same with the situation we had a few years ago when players worked out that playing the ball into the defender at the back of the ruck would gain them an offside penalty. Everyone started doing it so the rules had to be adjusted.

Other similar loopholes I think could come up in the next few years:

- If the ball hits the referee or a trainer then the team with territorial advantage (i.e the team nearest to their opponent's try line) get the turnover. Nothing to stop a team deliberately passing the ball into the ref to get a fresh set of 6 as it stands.

- High tackles are penalised even when the attacker is falling. Nothing to stop an attacker deliberately losing his feet last second to draw a high tackle penalty (apart from self preservation )

- There is no rule against a team running over their own dead ball line. Teams with a narrow lead tend to grubber into touch with a minute left and defend the set. It would be far more effective in most situations to waste more time by running all the way back (even if it's 90 metres), dancing around for a bit until a defender gets near, then going over the dead ball line. The clock then continues to run down even more whilst the touch judges run back to the halfway. That could probably kill a minute or more, especially as defences won't react straight away whilst they haven't seen the tactic before. Hooter goes without the opposition getting their last set.

Agree with what you say about the penalty for going for the arm at the PTB and it being a penalty and no issue with that. Also agree that it hasnt been communicated very well as usual.

Also agree with some of your ideas particularly the high tackle when a player is falling etc.

As an aside
Can you tell me the latest on the rule they brought in 18months ago were if a player is injured and the game stops they should leave the field for the next set?

I got frustrated in the HKR game that they had 4/5 stoppages at ultra convenient times and no players left the field.
Against wakey away it happened about 7 times and usually when wakey kicked to us we makenthe first tackle or if a player made a break then the wakey player would go down injured and game stopped, yet no player was asked to leave field.

It happened 3 or 4 times against wire, only then on about the 4th or 5th a wore player was asked to leave the field for a set?

As an aside
Bringing all these rules in that coaches and players then try to find ways around which intu4n brings in more rules is killing the game.
Along with players diving around like theyve been shot when they are hit a millisecond late or tapped on the face.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:32 pm  

Bigredwarrior wrote:

I still think Faz did nothing wrong. I may a bit pedantic, but the rule says ‘as the ball is picked up.’ Roby had picked it up and was in that act of passing when Faz grabbed the arm. Wouldn’t have changed the result in any way but I’ll be looking at this rule being applied consistently in future, particularly by James Child.

Actually, this is true. I hadn't thought of it that way. Once Roby picked the ball up it was 'game on'. Pedantic, maybe but the rule itself, and indeed James Child's interpretation of it, is also pedantic. Which is why I have to disagree with Grimmy's post a couple down that it's a good rule. Just different opinions of course.

I think rules that are dependent on interpretation in this way in order to be operational are, by definition, flawed.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:53 pm  

apollosghost wrote:

Two matches for Isa, KPP got a caution for his late hit

Not surprised at the Isa one - was a very odd thing to do. It might help him as in recent games he has looked frustrated and a but reckless, forever shooting out of the line and looking like he is trying to wind everyone up. Hopefully he can get back to how he was playing back end of last season which was more controlled.

The KPP one was marginal at best (thought the ref over-reacted) and glad to see he has not got any punishment.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:06 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

It's a lot easier to do it when defending your goalline because the man playing the ball isn't in your way if you are to one side with your foot on the goalline. Anywhere else on the pitch you would either have to be not square, or the hooker would have to pick the ball up very slowly, for you to do the same thing. It's inconsistent with other areas of the pitch, but it is a good rule IMO. Sometimes these rules change because one player works out a way around them, then everyone copies him. It was the same with the situation we had a few years ago when players worked out that playing the ball into the defender at the back of the ruck would gain them an offside penalty. Everyone started doing it so the rules had to be adjusted.

Other similar loopholes I think could come up in the next few years:

- If the ball hits the referee or a trainer then the team with territorial advantage (i.e the team nearest to their opponent's try line) get the turnover. Nothing to stop a team deliberately passing the ball into the ref to get a fresh set of 6 as it stands.

- High tackles are penalised even when the attacker is falling. Nothing to stop an attacker deliberately losing his feet last second to draw a high tackle penalty (apart from self preservation )

- There is no rule against a team running over their own dead ball line. Teams with a narrow lead tend to grubber into touch with a minute left and defend the set. It would be far more effective in most situations to waste more time by running all the way back (even if it's 90 metres), dancing around for a bit until a defender gets near, then going over the dead ball line. The clock then continues to run down even more whilst the touch judges run back to the halfway. That could probably kill a minute or more, especially as defences won't react straight away whilst they haven't seen the tactic before. Hooter goes without the opposition getting their last set.

but you cvcan move backwards away from the goal line cant you?

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:37 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Agree with what you say about the penalty for going for the arm at the PTB and it being a penalty and no issue with that. Also agree that it hasnt been communicated very well as usual.

Also agree with some of your ideas particularly the high tackle when a player is falling etc.

As an aside
Can you tell me the latest on the rule they brought in 18months ago were if a player is injured and the game stops they should leave the field for the next set?

I got frustrated in the HKR game that they had 4/5 stoppages at ultra convenient times and no players left the field.
Against wakey away it happened about 7 times and usually when wakey kicked to us we makenthe first tackle or if a player made a break then the wakey player would go down injured and game stopped, yet no player was asked to leave field.

It happened 3 or 4 times against wire, only then on about the 4th or 5th a wore player was asked to leave the field for a set?

As an aside
Bringing all these rules in that coaches and players then try to find ways around which intu4n brings in more rules is killing the game.
Along with players diving around like theyve been shot when they are hit a millisecond late or tapped on the face.

Sounds like you are getting mixed up with the rule around shot clock mate. If a player is stood up when the shot clock is put on, then goes down injured afterwards, he can get treated and his team don't concede the shot clock penalty, but he has to leave the field until his team get the ball next. It's only in shot clock situations (which is currently only drop outs as scrums as temporarily removed) not general play.

Re: 21 man squad to face St Helens Sunday. : Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:42 am  

Grimmy wrote: There is no rule against a team running over their own dead ball line. Teams with a narrow lead tend to grubber into touch with a minute left and defend the set. It would be far more effective in most situations to waste more time by running all the way back (even if it's 90 metres), dancing around for a bit until a defender gets near, then going over the dead ball line. The clock then continues to run down even more whilst the touch judges run back to the halfway. That could probably kill a minute or more, especially as defences won't react straight away whilst they haven't seen the tactic before. Hooter goes without the opposition getting their last set. Can't believe this happened one week after I predicted it! https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/teams/roosters/nrl-news-sam-walker-run-video-roosters-vs-bulldogs-last-play-coach-trent-robinson/news-story/1abee84385d366c6f1303f54349bb512

Grimmy wrote: There is no rule against a team running over their own dead ball line. Teams with a narrow lead tend to grubber into touch with a minute left and defend the set. It would be far more effective in most situations to waste more time by running all the way back (even if it's 90 metres), dancing around for a bit until a defender gets near, then going over the dead ball line. The clock then continues to run down even more whilst the touch judges run back to the halfway. That could probably kill a minute or more, especially as defences won't react straight away whilst they haven't seen the tactic before. Hooter goes without the opposition getting their last set. Can't believe this happened one week after I predicted it! https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/teams/roosters/nrl-news-sam-walker-run-video-roosters-vs-bulldogs-last-play-coach-trent-robinson/news-story/1abee84385d366c6f1303f54349bb512