Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:00 pm  

I'll probably get blasted for this, but hey ho. Aside from getting stuck in, what do these guys offer? I'm not trying to put them down, I am asking if they bring enough to the team? If they do, I don't see what it is they bring.

In years gone by, they wouldn't be anywhere near the first team. Are they regulars because there is an overall lack of talent available, because of the salary cap and having to have middle of the road players, or do people see something I don't?

Same goes for Shorrocks, I have no idea what he brings to the team. However I doubt he is playing regular if we have a fully fit squad, where as Smithies and Partington are.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:55 pm  

ChrisA wrote:

I'll probably get blasted for this, but hey ho. Aside from getting stuck in, what do these guys offer? I'm not trying to put them down, I am asking if they bring enough to the team? If they do, I don't see what it is they bring.

In years gone by, they wouldn't be anywhere near the first team. Are they regulars because there is an overall lack of talent available, because of the salary cap and having to have middle of the road players, or do people see something I don't?

Same goes for Shorrocks, I have no idea what he brings to the team. However I doubt he is playing regular if we have a fully fit squad, where as Smithies and Partington are.

The concern I have is that many of our recent academy products are very similar - Smithies, Partington, Byrne, McDonnell etc are all solid enough grafters, high workmate, aggressive defenders. But none of them are particularly big, quick or skilful and as you say there is next to no chance of any of them breaking the line or changing a game.

Havard and Pearce-Paul have some outstanding physical attributes which set them apart from the rest whilst Shorrocks at least looks to have some ball playing ability.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:09 pm  

I’ll judge any of the young forwards only when they have the sufficient experienced quality around them that they need. We look at Smithies and Partington as though they’re senior players but they’re still kids, who should be dripped in and out the side, especially when there are 3 or 4 other kids in the pack. They’re younger and less experienced than somebody like Matty Lees and I’d class Matty Lees as a youngster still. When he plays for the Saints team in the cup final, he’ll be the youngest forward in their side and he will line up with experience all around him. I bet Partington and Smithies wished they had it as easy.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:15 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

The concern I have is that many of our recent academy products are very similar - Smithies, Partington, Byrne, McDonnell etc are all solid enough grafters, high workmate, aggressive defenders. But none of them are particularly big, quick or skilful and as you say there is next to no chance of any of them breaking the line or changing a game.

Havard and Pearce-Paul have some outstanding physical attributes which set them apart from the rest whilst Shorrocks at least looks to have some ball playing ability.

Exactly, they both all have the minimum that you'd expect for a player to play at the top level at a top club - effort, commitment, fearless etc. But what exactly is that extra that you should have to to break into, and stay in a top team? Neither breaks a tackle, neither is a ball player, neither has an offload, none of them are any size.

As I say I'm not trying to pick at them (nobody can doubt their effort) and it's not a knee jerk reaction to recent from, I've asked this all last year too.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:21 pm  

Smithies did have a good attacking game against Leeds when he played left side 2nd row. Ran some good lines and got the team on the front foot a few times. He's never going to play there regularly though with Farrell in the squad.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:24 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I’ll judge any of the young forwards only when they have the sufficient experienced quality around them that they need. We look at Smithies and Partington as though they’re senior players but they’re still kids, who should be dripped in and out the side, especially when there are 3 or 4 other kids in the pack. They’re younger and less experienced than somebody like Matty Lees and I’d class Matty Lees as a youngster still. When he plays for the Saints team in the cup final, he’ll be the youngest forward in their side and he will line up with experience all around him. I bet Partington and Smithies wished they had it as easy.

I get that, recruitment of our forwards had been well discussed. I am talking about talent and ability, what is it they bring? If we have a decent pack, do they even get in the team?

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:25 pm  

No it's a fair point, Partington I think is the better of the two as he has shown occasional glimpses of being able to break the line or have a little more to his game (but is still pretty much a grafter). Smithies I have never really got why some think he is anything special - solid but unspectacular espiecially in an attacking sense, but as has been said a lot of the forwards who have come through the academy recently are pretty kuch of a muchness - solid but not offering anything outstanding. That is why I think KPP is a change as he looks to have something different (an offload for goodness sake - a rarity).

For me it is why we have struggled in the pack over the last year or two, the lack of size and the lack of any real attacking threat - even Singleton is pretty much the same as is Isa. Thank goodness for Farrell as we would have struggled big time without him and hopefully Bateman can find his best form sometime soon.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:35 pm  

ChrisA wrote:

I get that, recruitment of our forwards had been well discussed. I am talking about talent and ability, what is it they bring? If we have a decent pack, do they even get in the team?

They’re two good young players. They have things to work on, as all young players do. If they have proper support around them, things become easier for them and they’re not always on the back foot. They both make as much ground as somebody like Morgan Knowles, yet he’s in a far better pack but has a higher rating. They both work as hard in defence. Morgan Smithies was excellent in the second row earlier this season but Lam loves flogging young players in the middle. They’re well down my list of guys whose contributions we should be questioning tbh. I’d have Lenagan, Rads, Lam and a number of senior players up at the top of that list.

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:00 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

They’re two good young players. They have things to work on, as all young players do. If they have proper support around them, things become easier for them and they’re not always on the back foot. They both make as much ground as somebody like Morgan Knowles, yet he’s in a far better pack but has a higher rating. They both work as hard in defence. Morgan Smithies was excellent in the second row earlier this season but Lam loves flogging young players in the middle. They’re well down my list of guys whose contributions we should be questioning tbh. I’d have Lenagan, Rads, Lam and a number of senior players up at the top of that list.

Aside from effort, commitment and good defence (fundementals), you've not mentioned anything that would seperate them from average. I'm talking about natural ability, things you can spot a mile off. They don't break the line, they don't offload, neither run great angles, they aren't big, they aren't quick, neither make yard post contact.

My point isn't to put them down, I'm asking what attributes they bring? Is their main attributes what we've both mentioned, effort and commitment?

Re: Smithies and Partington : Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:03 pm  

ChrisA wrote:

Aside from effort, commitment and good defence (fundementals), you've not mentioned anything that would seperate them from average. I'm talking about natural ability, things you can spot a mile off. They don't break the line, they don't offload, neither run great angles, they aren't big, they aren't quick, neither make yard post contact.

My point isn't to put them down, I'm asking what attributes they bring? Is their main attributes what we've both mentioned, effort and commitment?

Doesn't Smithies hold the record for tackles in a game? They're both more grafters than anything else at this stage. We probably are getting to a point where we need to make some hard decisions on some of these young forwards though. We are probably trying to develop one or two too many all at once.